WEBVTT 1 00:07:09.677 --> 00:07:10.610 Good afternoon. 2 00:07:10.802 --> 00:07:13.951 It is 2:02 PM on Tuesday, September 22nd. 3 00:07:14.096 --> 00:07:17.937 I am calling to order today's City Life Committee. 4 00:07:18.802 --> 00:07:20.274 Wendy, can you please call the roll? 5 00:07:24.257 --> 00:07:25.319 Good afternoon, Maria. 6 00:07:26.963 --> 00:07:27.011 Here. 7 00:07:27.204 --> 00:07:27.654 Zimmerman. 8 00:07:28.973 --> 00:07:29.086 Here. 9 00:07:29.923 --> 00:07:30.309 Avalos. 10 00:07:30.470 --> 00:07:30.759 Present. 11 00:07:31.853 --> 00:07:32.158 Ryan. 12 00:07:32.415 --> 00:07:32.673 Here. 13 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:33.526 Pirtle-Guiney. 14 00:07:34.122 --> 00:07:34.314 Here. 15 00:07:34.749 --> 00:07:37.593 And Kevin, could you please read us our statement of conduct? 16 00:07:39.019 --> 00:07:41.199 Welcome to the meeting of the City Life Committee. 17 00:07:41.555 --> 00:07:48.324 To testify before this committee in person or virtually, you must sign up in advance on the committee agenda at www.portland.gov/council/agenda/citylife. 18 00:07:53.966 --> 00:07:56.658 Life Committee, or by calling 311. 19 00:07:57.187 --> 00:08:00.170 Information on engaging with the committee can be found at this link. 20 00:08:00.634 --> 00:08:04.274 Registration for virtual testimony closes 1 hour prior to the meeting. 21 00:08:04.802 --> 00:08:07.976 In-person testifiers must sign up before the agenda item is heard. 22 00:08:08.569 --> 00:08:14.468 If public testimony will be taken on an item, individuals may testify for 3 minutes unless the chair states otherwise. 23 00:08:14.901 --> 00:08:17.370 Your microphone will be muted when your time is over. 24 00:08:17.947 --> 00:08:18.956 The chair preserves order. 25 00:08:19.406 --> 00:08:33.910 Disruptive conduct such as shouting, refusing to conclude your testimony when your time is up, or interrupting others' testimony further disruption will result in ejection from the meeting. 26 00:08:34.426 --> 00:08:38.272 Anyone who fails to leave once ejected is subject to arrest for trespass. 27 00:08:38.788 --> 00:08:42.488 Additionally, the committee may take a short recess and reconvene virtually. 28 00:08:42.971 --> 00:08:44.958 Your testimony should address the matter being considered. 29 00:08:45.509 --> 00:08:48.135 When testifying, one, state your name for the record. 30 00:08:48.442 --> 00:08:50.923 If you are a lobbyist, identify the organization you represent. 31 00:08:50.971 --> 00:08:51.083 Thank you. 32 00:08:51.355 --> 00:08:55.607 And 2, virtual testifiers should unmute themselves when the clerk calls your name. 33 00:08:56.123 --> 00:08:56.428 Thank you. 34 00:08:58.120 --> 00:08:59.634 Thank you very much, colleagues. 35 00:08:59.811 --> 00:09:07.780 At our last meeting, we got to dive deep on a big topic that we hope will lead to some legislation down the road. 36 00:09:08.394 --> 00:09:13.479 Next meeting, we will dive deep on a different topic through our Advance Portland presentation. 37 00:09:13.527 --> 00:09:19.482 We'll get to look at economic development and then work on a couple of ordinances brought forth by the administration. 38 00:09:19.533 --> 00:09:31.096 But today we get to do some work on items brought forward so we have 3 main items on the agenda today that we'll be hearing, uh, 2 brought by Councilor Zimmerman and one from Councilor Novick. 39 00:09:31.741 --> 00:09:34.724 Uh, before we dive in though, I think we have to approve some minutes. 40 00:09:34.773 --> 00:09:37.134 So Wendy, could you please call the first item on the agenda? 41 00:09:39.796 --> 00:09:40.135 Certainly. 42 00:09:40.280 --> 00:09:47.619 Item number 1, City Life Committee meeting minutes for July 14th, July 28th, and August 11th, 2026. 43 00:09:51.042 --> 00:09:54.024 And colleagues, is there any opposition to the minutes? 44 00:09:54.121 --> 00:09:56.570 If not, I believe we can approve them by unanimous consent. 45 00:09:58.368 --> 00:09:59.625 Seeing none. 46 00:10:01.619 --> 00:10:02.975 Okay, minutes approved. 47 00:10:04.950 --> 00:10:09.116 And that moves us to our public input. 48 00:10:09.182 --> 00:10:11.355 Wendy, could you please call the next item on the agenda? 49 00:10:13.158 --> 00:10:18.600 Item number 2, document number 2026-338, public input on City Life Committee topics. 50 00:10:19.793 --> 00:10:21.885 We have one person signed up to testify. 51 00:10:24.149 --> 00:10:26.688 Ghalib El, come on up. 52 00:10:28.250 --> 00:10:28.572 Welcome. 53 00:10:32.548 --> 00:10:41.716 And my apologies, just, uh, we're having some trouble with the timer, so you, um, you'll see the timer on the screen, but you will not get that 30-second warning that we normally do. 54 00:10:42.024 --> 00:10:45.548 Well, I timed this thing, so it should come in around 2:55-ish, hopefully. 55 00:10:47.870 --> 00:10:48.113 Perfect. 56 00:10:48.291 --> 00:10:49.813 Greetings, beloved committee members. 57 00:10:50.009 --> 00:10:59.419 I am Ghalib Ben Imhotep L. My district is Domicile 4, and when I last spoke before you, I expressed my dedication to Project Zero. 58 00:11:00.966 --> 00:11:03.480 It's more than just a dedication, it is a will. 59 00:11:04.289 --> 00:11:08.956 By 2050, Portland will be a zero-carbon emission city. 60 00:11:10.018 --> 00:11:12.493 The written testimony that I submitted 2 weeks ago. 61 00:11:13.091 --> 00:11:14.739 It had a couple of visual flubs in it. 62 00:11:14.932 --> 00:11:15.029 I—. 63 00:11:15.029 --> 00:11:17.759 It's the first time I used PowerPoint in a while. 64 00:11:18.229 --> 00:11:18.859 I was a little rusty. 65 00:11:19.708 --> 00:11:24.604 I resubmitted it recently, and hopefully it's a little bit more comprehensible and able to be comprehended. 66 00:11:26.648 --> 00:11:37.225 I am that I am, a solution-oriented being that believes that economy and ecology are not just synonymous, they are one in the same. 67 00:11:38.660 --> 00:11:40.207 Portland's economy is suffering. 68 00:11:40.981 --> 00:11:41.606 That is obvious. 69 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:44.701 Data centers ruin ecology. 70 00:11:45.544 --> 00:11:46.599 That too is obvious. 71 00:11:49.961 --> 00:11:59.727 Given the previous statements, it is only logical to state that there is no economical benefit to a data center if it does not support the local ecology. 72 00:12:00.976 --> 00:12:03.538 But I am not here to discuss the controversy of the data centers. 73 00:12:03.716 --> 00:12:06.767 I am here because Mother Earth beckons me to action. 74 00:12:08.793 --> 00:12:21.594 If I do not act, if I sit idly by and let things happen, who knows what sort of ecological travesties will befall this area or, or here. 75 00:12:22.371 --> 00:12:22.937 Excuse me. 76 00:12:23.909 --> 00:12:24.428 Excuse me. 77 00:12:26.501 --> 00:12:27.215 Lost my place there. 78 00:12:29.133 --> 00:12:31.433 But that's not a sustainable way of thinking. 79 00:12:32.518 --> 00:12:34.191 It's not the right way of being. 80 00:12:35.253 --> 00:12:37.246 I am the promoter of a progressive Portland. 81 00:12:37.745 --> 00:12:42.235 I have a minor background in law, though I have passed no bar exam and I'm no licensed attorney. 82 00:12:42.768 --> 00:12:49.303 I do realize that there are barriers to what can and can't be done according to Oregon Revised Statutes and state ordinance and municipal policy. 83 00:12:50.336 --> 00:13:00.528 But Mother Earth does not, will not, and is not in, in any sort of manner supposed to have to bend her will to those things. 84 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:00.736 Thank you. 85 00:13:01.447 --> 00:13:05.462 When things get too hectic, Mother Earth cleanses and then starts all over again. 86 00:13:06.426 --> 00:13:07.695 Humanity cannot afford this. 87 00:13:08.691 --> 00:13:10.264 Portland will not experience this. 88 00:13:11.034 --> 00:13:13.202 I have submitted another document for the committee's review. 89 00:13:14.167 --> 00:13:21.041 If it's agreeable, maybe this document can be presented to Multnomah County for a countywide or even a statewide Project Zero. 90 00:13:22.326 --> 00:13:23.288 We sit on a precipice. 91 00:13:24.332 --> 00:13:31.707 We are powerful enough to dictate whether we fall off that cliff Or whether we spread our wings and fly like the celestial beings that we are. 92 00:13:33.370 --> 00:13:34.337 That choice is yours. 93 00:13:35.241 --> 00:13:36.274 That choice is mine. 94 00:13:36.873 --> 00:13:38.034 That choice is Portland's. 95 00:13:38.729 --> 00:13:40.020 That choice is Oregon's. 96 00:13:40.893 --> 00:13:42.006 The power is yours. 97 00:13:43.029 --> 00:13:44.806 It resides in your hands. 98 00:13:45.888 --> 00:13:53.230 Wield it wisely and know without an iota of if that I love you all unconditionally. 99 00:13:53.328 --> 00:13:53.934 Thank you. 100 00:13:54.066 --> 00:13:54.410 Thank you. 101 00:13:56.096 --> 00:13:57.874 Thank you for being here and for the documents. 102 00:14:00.860 --> 00:14:02.188 That concludes public input. 103 00:14:03.470 --> 00:14:03.826 Thank you. 104 00:14:04.539 --> 00:14:09.219 Wendy, could you open the next 2 items, items 2 and 3? 105 00:14:09.395 --> 00:14:11.950 No, items 3 and 4, I believe. 106 00:14:12.511 --> 00:14:13.154 Yes, thank you. 107 00:14:14.038 --> 00:14:32.505 Items 3 and 4, documents number 2026-287, Dynamic Pricing and Surveillance Pricing Regulation Presentation, and 2026-288, add regulation of dynamic pricing and prohibition of surveillance pricing in retail code. 108 00:14:33.003 --> 00:14:35.504 Add Code Chapter 7.28. 109 00:14:36.547 --> 00:14:37.509 Thank you. 110 00:14:37.653 --> 00:14:43.474 And I am going to turn it over to Councilor Zimmerman, and I believe you and your staff have a presentation for us. 111 00:14:44.227 --> 00:14:44.725 We do. 112 00:14:44.821 --> 00:14:45.846 Thank you, Chair. 113 00:14:45.927 --> 00:14:46.985 It's great to be here. 114 00:14:47.066 --> 00:14:52.470 I do have both Luke and Daniel from my team at the dais who will help with the presentation. 115 00:14:52.581 --> 00:14:58.967 But as we go through this, I know there'll be some aspect of, defining certain things. 116 00:14:59.307 --> 00:15:06.327 And so that's what this presentation is going to attempt to do while we also lay out both a problem and a solution. 117 00:15:07.179 --> 00:15:08.807 If we can go to the next slide. 118 00:15:09.164 --> 00:15:19.828 The Consumers Opposed to Surveillance Technology, or the COST Ordinance, is really trying to face a problem that is— we just heard about being on the precipice of something. 119 00:15:19.957 --> 00:15:36.621 We're on the precipice of technology moving fast enough and faster than, frankly, I think consumers can, to the point where we can see that technology is headed toward a surveillance-based or an AI-enhanced price-setting model within the retail market. 120 00:15:37.423 --> 00:15:45.534 And so from the perspective of our office and others, it's that if we can get in front of this issue, we have a chance here. 121 00:15:46.111 --> 00:15:50.375 So going to the next slide, I want to just define a few terms. 122 00:15:50.423 --> 00:15:58.961 Dynamic pricing of altering the price of an item for all customers in real time based on external factors such as weather, demand, time of day, and availability of supply. 123 00:15:59.715 --> 00:16:08.852 Surveillance is based— setting the price of an item for a specific customer based on information acquired through their personal data, some history, income, and demographic profiles. 124 00:16:09.432 --> 00:16:13.157 Retail vendor— any business that sells goods to customers within the City of Portland. 125 00:16:13.221 --> 00:16:18.504 And third-party service providers— any business that delivers goods to customers of a retail vendor. 126 00:16:19.548 --> 00:16:21.331 Uh, just noting that neither dynamic yeah. 127 00:16:21.412 --> 00:16:31.370 Not that dynamic pricing nor surveillance pricing are all about the cost of goods so much as— and the cost of labor, but that dynamic and surveillance pricing usually comes after we've seen original prices set. 128 00:16:31.595 --> 00:16:32.623 So just keep that in mind. 129 00:16:33.136 --> 00:16:39.513 We're already on to the next slide, and I just— in terms of the public reaction, the public is already familiar with dynamic pricing. 130 00:16:39.561 --> 00:16:48.315 This is a common practice that we see in rideshare, airlines, hotels, those types of services that a person buys. 131 00:16:50.643 --> 00:16:57.024 Applying that to retail goods, and retail goods is what today is really about. 132 00:16:57.763 --> 00:17:13.462 I say that because I want to make sure I underline for you that today's ordinance is not, is not taking any action against the service industry, and there's more to come on that, but I wanted to be very clear we're talking about retail goods. 133 00:17:14.217 --> 00:17:15.804 Moving to the next slide, thank you. 134 00:17:16.782 --> 00:17:22.659 You've seen some stuff across the country that cities and states around the nation have started to act. 135 00:17:22.787 --> 00:17:36.690 Even our own Senator Merkley and Representative Hoyle, both from Oregon, have been trying to work federal legislation to halt this type of what could be potential price manipulation in the retail goods, but certainly what we're seeing in the services area. 136 00:17:37.573 --> 00:17:42.999 We've listed here some states who've already tried to take some action or successfully taken some action. 137 00:17:43.897 --> 00:17:53.403 And we'll just say that as technology moves rapidly in this moment, when all things related to technology advances, I think everybody's trying to keep up here. 138 00:17:53.805 --> 00:18:08.704 So moving to the next, the reason that we're bringing this forward to you is really in terms of ensuring that Portland doesn't slide any further away from making sure that everybody's treated fairly when they're in the retail market. 139 00:18:08.801 --> 00:18:21.855 That we're talking about affordability, we're talking about a consumer protection issue, and ultimately this comes down to a fairness issue for all shoppers and ensuring that your private information is not used to set prices for you. 140 00:18:23.630 --> 00:18:29.007 So what does the cost ordinance do and how does it regulate? 141 00:18:29.169 --> 00:18:42.557 So in terms of how does it regulate dynamic pricing, prices cannot be increased more than once In a calendar day and applies to all retail vendors and third-party delivery service providers. 142 00:18:44.691 --> 00:19:00.678 In our discussions about what is a norm within the market, we've found that a once-a-day price change is quite reasonable and that we're all familiar with the need to move— I'm going to use grocery as an instance— but the need to move a product. 143 00:19:00.726 --> 00:19:00.790 Yes. 144 00:19:02.106 --> 00:19:17.564 None of this gets in the way of that, but making sure that if you went to the store, you know, at 10 AM versus 1 PM, that there's a reasonable expectation that prices remain the same unless it's part of a program set of changes. 145 00:19:18.157 --> 00:19:19.808 So what does it do for surveillance pricing? 146 00:19:20.337 --> 00:19:33.988 It really means that personal data, including any of your protected class data, cannot be used to establish a retail price specifically to you, is an important and it applies to all retail vendors and third-party delivery service providers. 147 00:19:34.977 --> 00:19:36.096 We can go to the next slide. 148 00:19:39.029 --> 00:19:49.265 Actually, excuse me, before I talk about this a little bit, I do want to just say in terms of what does the ordinance do, we also have the ordinance not taking place until July 1st, 2027. 149 00:19:50.359 --> 00:20:01.137 So really, given the timeline of this council and how it comes out of— if it comes out, if you all decide to send it to council, I see that as basically coming up to be yeah. 150 00:20:01.201 --> 00:20:04.510 So we're talking between 6 to 9 months before going live. 151 00:20:04.977 --> 00:20:11.209 But the good thing here is that generally we don't believe and have not heard from retailers that this is already a technology in place. 152 00:20:11.481 --> 00:20:18.243 And so what we'd be sending is a signal to folks who do business in Portland of, we know you're getting pitched on this technology. 153 00:20:19.174 --> 00:20:23.528 We're telling you, don't invest in that kind of capital expansion because we're not going to allow it here. 154 00:20:23.930 --> 00:20:27.992 But this is what you see in terms of our day here, or of our implementation. 155 00:20:28.909 --> 00:20:46.932 The provisions this will cover matters that are not preempted by state or federal law, and we're not trying to create a complicated patchwork, which is why you see some pretty broad terms in order to avoid loopholes and what-ifs and just be very straightforward with Portlanders, with consumers, and with businesses. 156 00:20:48.859 --> 00:21:02.336 I also want to be really clear, just given the nature of this conversation across the country, that this ordinance is not prohibiting the use of electronic shelf labels, as you saw in the picture in the opening of this. 157 00:21:03.170 --> 00:21:06.847 The label themselves is not the concerning aspect. 158 00:21:06.912 --> 00:21:12.042 It is the technology that is enabled to exploit based on the use of labels. 159 00:21:12.236 --> 00:21:17.587 And so we're going to go after the technology and the exploitative stuff instead of just the change in label technology. 160 00:21:18.915 --> 00:21:25.623 So, uh, in this discussion, it is inherent, you're going to get to the point where you talk about loyalty programs. 161 00:21:25.686 --> 00:21:39.843 And loyalty programs mean things like Safeway Rewards, Fred Meyer Rewards, Costco memberships, Amazon Prime memberships— those types of things that we all are aware, well aware of, and many people are members of. 162 00:21:40.435 --> 00:21:45.053 That this does not attack any of those typical programs and those that are set up for their consumers. 163 00:21:45.164 --> 00:21:50.743 The cost ordinance doesn't limit or regulate discounts and sales and loyalty programs. 164 00:21:51.161 --> 00:21:56.676 Retailers can still continue to offer those discounts to attract customers, to build that customer base. 165 00:21:57.510 --> 00:22:02.368 Membership and loyalty and rewards subscription are all untouched in this. 166 00:22:03.202 --> 00:22:11.925 Signing up for a mailing list or agreeing to share your personal data, registering for promotions, communications, those are all, I think, things we're used to. 167 00:22:12.423 --> 00:22:36.548 Another area that we're not trying to attack here and making sure is protected is If a person is part of a professional group, so we see veterans discounts, we see teachers discounts, sometimes we see student discounts, sometimes residents of a certain area, maybe a neighborhood has said we're going to have a promotion for members of this neighborhood, youth and senior citizens. 168 00:22:36.644 --> 00:22:41.347 These are all things that I think are fairly common within the American consumer market and we're all quite used to. 169 00:22:41.798 --> 00:22:43.002 And I want to be clear that this yes. 170 00:22:43.084 --> 00:22:45.712 Is not changing anything for them. 171 00:22:46.394 --> 00:22:49.866 And of course, your coupons, promotions, things of that nature. 172 00:22:51.309 --> 00:23:05.464 What we're really trying to say is that retailers can set different service-based fees on objective costs for delivering prices and goods, but that's between them and their consumer and how they're going to be competitive in the market, and that those loyalty programs are part of that. 173 00:23:06.662 --> 00:23:11.144 So in terms of if this were to go forward, how would a cost ordinance be enforced? 174 00:23:11.531 --> 00:23:16.634 The law has a penalty structure with opportunities to cure any violations. 175 00:23:17.325 --> 00:23:26.904 And so we see that basically go through the typical city administrator's office/hearings officer program that we see in other parts of the city. 176 00:23:27.803 --> 00:23:32.215 If a violation is determined, a penalty can be assessed on a retailer or a delivery provider. 177 00:23:32.376 --> 00:23:38.666 If it's a violation for— it is a violation for each consumer for whom a price has been set in a non-compliant manner. 178 00:23:39.211 --> 00:23:47.961 And penalties can be waived if the violation is cured within 45 days after the notice is received by the business for the first violation in a 24-month period. 179 00:23:48.490 --> 00:23:59.097 I want to just note here a little bit of our approach in working to come up with an enforcement and a violation structure, which was we are getting ahead of a technology. 180 00:23:59.403 --> 00:24:03.376 We're asking, we're asking the market not to adopt a certain type of technology. 181 00:24:04.434 --> 00:24:11.770 And I think that that's important because we're laying out a set of expectations for what it would be like to be a consumer in Portland. 182 00:24:12.317 --> 00:24:24.777 And so while we have some flexibility in here, I also expect that if we set a standard early and now, we can avoid a significant number of issues because we won't be unraveling a current practice. 183 00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:26.575 We're actually preventing a future practice. 184 00:24:27.153 --> 00:24:44.319 So just to kind of get you an idea for what a penalty amount might look like if If we pass such a thing, is that it's noted in the ordinance as $1,000 for the first violation in a calendar year, $5,000 for a second violation in that same calendar year, and $7,500 for any subsequent violation in the same calendar year. 185 00:24:44.390 --> 00:24:51.569 And that's how that's laid out going through our typical human— excuse me, hearings officer. 186 00:24:51.569 --> 00:24:58.049 I do want to invite up some members of the community who've helped us draft some of this legislation. 187 00:24:58.130 --> 00:25:00.670 Mike Salvaggio from United Food and Commercial Workers Local 555. 188 00:25:00.670 --> 00:25:00.690 Hi. 189 00:25:02.586 --> 00:25:07.738 If you wouldn't mind joining us at the dais, and Amanda Dalton from the Northwest Grocery Retail Association. 190 00:25:07.818 --> 00:25:11.810 I'd invite you both up as invited testimony, and I thank you guys for your time. 191 00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:14.652 I know you were here about a month ago, so thank you for coming back. 192 00:25:21.872 --> 00:25:24.615 Mike, do you want to start since you're on the top of the list? 193 00:25:26.104 --> 00:25:29.844 Thank you, Madam Chair, Mr. Councilor, members of the committee. 194 00:25:30.718 --> 00:25:32.435 For the record, my name is Michael Salvaggio. 195 00:25:32.724 --> 00:25:37.653 I am here representing United Food and Commercial Workers Local 555. 196 00:25:38.586 --> 00:25:45.425 We have tens of thousands of members in Oregon and bits of Washington and Idaho. 197 00:25:46.211 --> 00:25:48.846 We are Oregon's largest private sector union. 198 00:25:49.199 --> 00:25:59.644 And if you are shopping at a Safeway, Fred Meyer, Albertsons, or a number of other stores in the area, you're probably interacting with our members. 199 00:26:01.965 --> 00:26:20.122 The reason that we've brought this up is that like many Portlanders, our members are struggling with not only high but unpredictable prices that are the effect of a number of different factors that are going on in our country and in the world right now. 200 00:26:22.432 --> 00:26:29.807 Compounding that though, as Councilor Zimmerman mentioned, what we see on the horizon with regard to these emerging technologies. 201 00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:58.663 The advent of electronic shelving labels is, again, as Councilor Zimmerman noted, not in and of itself nefarious, but the ability of some of these third-party technology providers to then go ahead and pitch certain products that are attached to those is what really has kind of got our backup. 202 00:27:00.951 --> 00:27:07.267 And I want to say for the record, we're not talking about the Kroger Company or Safeway Albertsons. 203 00:27:07.378 --> 00:27:15.337 We're talking about companies that the average Portlander probably has never heard of, such as Nationwide Group or UiPath or Tenging. 204 00:27:15.516 --> 00:27:15.984 Tenging. 205 00:27:17.452 --> 00:27:21.868 These are companies that are not really hiding their hands in terms of what they're pitching. 206 00:27:23.028 --> 00:27:43.679 They're actively suggesting to retailers to use this technology for things like, and I'll just kind of quote, this is from Nationwide Group, by using digital price tags, product pricing is automatically updated, resulting in a reduction of missed margin opportunities. 207 00:27:44.291 --> 00:27:50.491 Or to put that another way, if there's an opportunity to charge the customer a higher price, we're not gonna miss that. 208 00:27:51.519 --> 00:28:17.256 We see elements such as agentic AI at work, which means an AI system that is acting on its own without a human intermediary in order to, as one other provider puts it, quote, interpret customer context from live data and every pricing decision is predicated, optimized, and executed automatically. 209 00:28:18.250 --> 00:28:24.086 These are the types of invasive pricing models that we're concerned about in the future. 210 00:28:24.744 --> 00:28:36.097 And so again, as Councilor Zimmerman, and I'm gonna refer to Councilor Zimmerman a lot given that he made a good presentation, as the Councilor said, this is—. 211 00:28:36.130 --> 00:28:36.290 Yeah. 212 00:28:37.013 --> 00:28:45.163 Not something where we're gonna pass a measure and then people are gonna go to the grocery store and see something drastically different than they did before. 213 00:28:45.373 --> 00:28:46.519 This is preventative. 214 00:28:48.278 --> 00:28:52.851 And so we have a draft that we see here. 215 00:28:53.853 --> 00:28:56.675 We're, just for the record, in favor of the draft. 216 00:28:57.207 --> 00:29:04.452 We're probably going to be doing some additional work at the state level on this for things that the city's not able to tackle. 217 00:29:04.534 --> 00:29:04.886 Thank you. 218 00:29:06.644 --> 00:29:21.954 But the— I did want to put a few things on the record as well, and that is our organization's desire to make sure that those loyalty programs are protected. 219 00:29:23.089 --> 00:29:38.741 When we talk about loyalty programs, you know, we were thinking of that Fred Meyer card, that Safeway card, things that are keeping customers coming back to that union store, we want to keep those in place because we do want those customers to keep on coming back to those union stores. 220 00:29:39.479 --> 00:29:55.936 And so whatever measure or adjustments or amendments are being considered or come down the pike, or if they stay as is, we just want to make sure that we're conveying our desire to hold those programs harmless. 221 00:29:55.984 --> 00:29:56.144 Thank you. 222 00:29:58.173 --> 00:30:07.306 And I'm sure there's plenty more I could say, but I will save some for questions in case anyone wants to dig in a little deeper on that. 223 00:30:08.930 --> 00:30:10.314 Thank you, Mr. Salvaggio. 224 00:30:10.394 --> 00:30:16.207 Appreciate you spending so much time with us both last month and now and helping us understand this topic even better. 225 00:30:16.545 --> 00:30:17.173 Always a pleasure. 226 00:30:17.414 --> 00:30:17.624 Yeah. 227 00:30:17.913 --> 00:30:18.736 Amanda, do you want to go ahead? 228 00:30:19.107 --> 00:30:19.446 Absolutely. 229 00:30:19.980 --> 00:30:22.404 Chair Pirtle-Guiney, members of the committee, Amanda Dalton. 230 00:30:22.518 --> 00:30:25.121 I'm the president of the Northwest Grocery Retail Association. 231 00:30:25.266 --> 00:30:35.483 Our members include large and small grocery retailers, delivery partners, and companies that stock your store shelves across the city, including in Oregon and Washington and Idaho. 232 00:30:35.579 --> 00:30:47.894 I do also want to echo the thanks and appreciation to Councilor Zimmerman and his team— nice to see you— who has really put a ton of work into the amended ordinance that's before you. 233 00:30:49.050 --> 00:30:54.076 As you've heard, this is an issue that's being debated across the country, and right now elsewhere who are in our region. 234 00:30:54.829 --> 00:30:58.952 It won't surprise you that we believe an issue like this is better addressed at the state level. 235 00:30:59.176 --> 00:31:07.326 Shoppers, retailers, delivery networks don't stop at city boundaries, and a patchwork of different local requirements does create real challenges. 236 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:15.395 That being said, if Portland is going to act locally, we appreciate the thoughtful and straightforward approach presented in the amended ordinance before you. 237 00:31:16.326 --> 00:31:34.104 I will note that it stands in stark contrast to a vote that's taking place right now in the city of Seattle, where we expect a policy to advance which will significantly restrict legitimate discounts and promotions and ultimately create unintended cost increases for our shoppers. 238 00:31:34.922 --> 00:31:42.598 Our members support protections that are clear, that prevent consumers from being charged higher prices based on their personal information. 239 00:31:43.271 --> 00:31:48.128 I want to be very clear about this point: grocery stores in Portland are not doing this today. 240 00:31:48.176 --> 00:31:48.368 Thank you. 241 00:31:49.106 --> 00:31:55.912 Grocery is a highly competitive, low-margin business where prices and promotions change for many legitimate reasons. 242 00:31:56.506 --> 00:32:06.744 So getting the distinction between individualized price increases and ordinary competitive pricing right matters to both retailers and to consumers. 243 00:32:08.125 --> 00:32:14.737 At the same time, grocery shoppers increasingly rely on discounts, promotions, and loyalty programs to stretch household budgets. 244 00:32:15.586 --> 00:32:31.844 So throughout this process, our goal, and one that we very much appreciate has been echoed by UFCW and Councilor Zimmerman, has been to make sure the ordinance presented is aimed at preventing unfair pricing practices while not inadvertently eliminating the savings that your shoppers depend on. 245 00:32:32.758 --> 00:32:38.288 I will say this is not an ordinance that our industry would have drafted, and there are amendments that we would have preferred to see included. 246 00:32:38.994 --> 00:32:47.490 However, we also recognize that policymaking done right requires compromise, and we appreciate that many of our concerns have been addressed and are included in the proposal before you. 247 00:32:48.307 --> 00:32:56.238 This includes loyalty protect— protecting programs like loyalty programs, member pricing, manufacturer coupons, promotions, rewards, and rebates. 248 00:32:57.182 --> 00:32:59.442 I also want to recognize the approach to enforcement. 249 00:33:00.179 --> 00:33:16.846 Notice of violations, escalating penalties for subsequent violations, and the ability to cure a first alleged violation with discretion to pursue enforcement after that within 45 days creates a fair mechanism that prioritizes compliance while maintaining meaningful consumer protections. 250 00:33:16.990 --> 00:33:22.011 That's particularly important because this ordinance applies to retailers of all size. 251 00:33:23.231 --> 00:33:30.788 We believe it's possible to protect consumers from unfair pricing practices while preserving the savings they rely on every day. 252 00:33:31.189 --> 00:33:39.323 The amended ordinance before you does this and distinguishes between practices that can harm consumers and those that can benefit from them. 253 00:33:39.693 --> 00:33:40.983 And finds a workable balance. 254 00:33:41.065 --> 00:33:46.549 And for those reasons, we appreciate the proposal before you and the work that went into getting it here. 255 00:33:46.694 --> 00:33:46.936 Thank you. 256 00:33:47.049 --> 00:33:51.951 Ms. Dalton, thank you for spending so much time with us, and we appreciate working with you on that. 257 00:33:52.030 --> 00:34:03.509 So colleagues, I would like to move into questions, but I just want to, you know, go a little less formal than the presentation. 258 00:34:03.558 --> 00:34:05.663 But really, our thank you. 259 00:34:05.823 --> 00:34:06.353 Thank you, Councilor Ryan. 260 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:07.010 Thank you to our panel. 261 00:34:07.107 --> 00:34:09.371 And the idea around this, they've summed it up, right? 262 00:34:09.418 --> 00:34:11.329 It's about preventing future exploitation. 263 00:34:12.148 --> 00:34:15.744 It's about preventing future unfair price practices. 264 00:34:15.954 --> 00:34:21.460 It's preventing, I think, a PII market, personally identifiable information market. 265 00:34:21.525 --> 00:34:28.637 It's about preserving loyalty programs and the consumer market that many of us have come to understand. 266 00:34:29.327 --> 00:34:31.719 And it's also preserving large and small businesses. 267 00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:35.965 Small retailers, grocers in our community, which I, I think is important. 268 00:34:36.621 --> 00:34:46.043 You know, there are going to be opportunities, I think, in this next legislative session at the state level, and I think that that is likely to go bigger and farther in terms of the types of things that people buy. 269 00:34:46.956 --> 00:34:49.327 Um, and I think that that will be appropriate for them. 270 00:34:49.697 --> 00:35:06.528 I agree with the sentiment about a patchwork, and I think that the, the ordinance addresses if a patchwork exists that we would be We would be subject to state or federal law if they come about. 271 00:35:06.625 --> 00:35:07.670 I think that's important. 272 00:35:08.420 --> 00:35:17.648 It's also an opportunity for us as Portland moving ahead to set an expectation or a standard, potentially to shape and help the state get it right. 273 00:35:18.275 --> 00:35:22.664 And sometimes we see things at the state move wonderfully, and other times we're left wanting. 274 00:35:22.856 --> 00:35:28.059 And I think this helps us set a tone and an agenda that can be good for the state. 275 00:35:30.106 --> 00:35:38.099 I will not move it now, but I do want to flag it now that you will see in the next item Zimmerman 1 as an amendment. 276 00:35:38.342 --> 00:35:45.815 It adds a single paragraph for a retail price in there and a couple of other administrative word changes. 277 00:35:46.010 --> 00:35:51.402 That is what I will move to replace the existing ordinance. 278 00:35:51.449 --> 00:35:55.902 So a new, a new, I think it's H paragraph, but I wanted you to be aware of that before we go into further discussion. 279 00:35:55.967 --> 00:35:56.146 Thank you. 280 00:35:59.518 --> 00:36:20.514 But I hope that we're a city who's ready to say that no matter where the technology goes, that when you walk into a grocery store with your cell phone, that the scanner doesn't say, look, it's Eric Zimmerman, let's start setting prices based on him and his specific information because his cell phone walked through the door, and make sure that we continue to set prices based on market and fairness and non-exploitative practices. 281 00:36:20.596 --> 00:36:22.168 So thank you, Chair, for getting us scheduled. 282 00:36:22.327 --> 00:36:33.110 I'm really appreciative to everybody's partnership on this, and I know that Councilor Councilor Smith and Councilor Coimbra Lane have both indicated a desire, a potential desire to add their names as co-sponsors in the future to this. 283 00:36:33.159 --> 00:36:33.784 So thank you. 284 00:36:34.987 --> 00:36:38.983 Thank you, Councilor, and thank you to both of our guests for being here today as well. 285 00:36:39.545 --> 00:36:41.695 Colleagues, we'll move into questions. 286 00:36:41.793 --> 00:36:45.306 I will note that we do not have anybody signed up for public testimony. 287 00:36:45.596 --> 00:36:50.860 I also want to note that we have 2 amendments posted, one from Councilor Zimmerman and one from Councilor Murillo. 288 00:36:51.356 --> 00:37:01.864 Councilor Zimmerman, do you prefer Do you prefer to, if your Zimmerman 1 is a replacement, do you prefer to adopt that before we move into discussion or would you like to move into discussion first? 289 00:37:03.278 --> 00:37:04.731 I think that would be most healthy. 290 00:37:04.956 --> 00:37:07.507 Yeah, it's a one add to it. 291 00:37:07.782 --> 00:37:08.523 I think that'd be great. 292 00:37:08.588 --> 00:37:12.172 And then we can just discuss it as it is if we can do that. 293 00:37:12.710 --> 00:37:12.822 Okay. 294 00:37:12.903 --> 00:37:20.085 And Councilor Murillo, does your amendment, I wanna make sure that we're able to debate your amendment if you plan to move it. 295 00:37:20.759 --> 00:37:24.324 Is it to the Zimmerman 1 version or the underlying version? 296 00:37:26.019 --> 00:37:32.164 For clarity, the new version just amends one line in your current ordinance? 297 00:37:32.422 --> 00:37:33.338 I'm sorry, can you say that again? 298 00:37:35.925 --> 00:37:45.340 It adds F, retail price, and it adjusts a couple of words in the following C. 299 00:37:45.728 --> 00:37:46.052 Gotcha. 300 00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:46.523 Oh, okay. 301 00:37:46.619 --> 00:37:48.775 Sorry, I got confused with what you were saying, Chair. 302 00:37:48.824 --> 00:37:53.748 My amendment is to the underlying ordinance, Okay. 303 00:37:55.094 --> 00:38:10.264 I would suggest in order for us to have this debate that we consider Zimmerman 1, and then if, Councilor, we need to have some conforming language to your amendment, if the body decides to move in that direction, we can work through that. 304 00:38:10.728 --> 00:38:11.467 That sounds fine with me. 305 00:38:11.867 --> 00:38:12.027 Okay. 306 00:38:13.375 --> 00:38:18.025 So Councilor Zimmerman, if you wanna make that motion before we move to Councilor Murillo, who's in the queue, go right ahead. 307 00:38:18.186 --> 00:38:18.380 Thank you. 308 00:38:18.429 --> 00:38:19.514 I'd like to move Zimmerman 1. 309 00:38:21.541 --> 00:38:21.849 Second. 310 00:38:24.150 --> 00:38:32.543 Okay, colleagues, any debate to Zimmerman 1 so that we can move into debating what our colleague intends to move forward? 311 00:38:34.153 --> 00:38:34.460 Okay. 312 00:38:34.733 --> 00:38:38.275 Can you, can you just restate quickly what the change does? 313 00:38:38.405 --> 00:38:38.614 Sure. 314 00:38:39.322 --> 00:38:56.737 So Zimmerman 1 adds a new paragraph F. Retail price means the then-current price of a good offered to a consumer prior to the application of any loyalty or membership of pricing, promotions, limited-time sales, discounts, and fees for premium or additional features. 315 00:38:56.784 --> 00:38:58.585 So that is in the definitions section. 316 00:38:59.597 --> 00:39:02.987 So then the cascading paragraphs all have to adjust by one. 317 00:39:03.983 --> 00:39:16.545 Then in the restrictions and prohibitions paragraph under C, we strike the word available in number 1 and all and add the letter A. 318 00:39:16.641 --> 00:39:16.818 Second. 319 00:39:17.190 --> 00:39:24.014 So offer— offering discounts a consumer through a voluntary loyalty membership rewards program or subscription. 320 00:39:25.275 --> 00:39:33.844 And then the second, number 2 there, offering same changes, offering discounts to a consumer based on etc., etc. 321 00:39:35.125 --> 00:39:51.871 At the very bottom of the document, in the effective date and interaction with other laws, paragraph B, this provision of the chapter will be superseded and unenforceable upon the effective date of any conflicting law passed by the State of Oregon. 322 00:39:52.626 --> 00:39:54.842 And we're inserting a period at the end of State of Oregon. 323 00:39:55.018 --> 00:40:01.168 Currently it has regulating the use of dynamic pricing or surveillance pricing by retail, et cetera, et cetera. 324 00:40:01.617 --> 00:40:06.724 We're striking that to just not be redundant based on the advice of the City Council or City Attorney. 325 00:40:06.789 --> 00:40:06.996 Second. 326 00:40:08.286 --> 00:40:10.163 Those are the— that's the summation of all the changes. 327 00:40:11.630 --> 00:40:11.679 Okay. 328 00:40:11.728 --> 00:40:15.228 Councilor Murillo, did you have a question or comments about Zimmerman 1? 329 00:40:16.969 --> 00:40:18.684 No, that all sounds fine to me. 330 00:40:18.896 --> 00:40:24.675 I think I— so I really like that we are trying to ban surveillance pricing here. 331 00:40:24.951 --> 00:40:26.521 I'm very excited about this as a concept. 332 00:40:26.585 --> 00:40:31.034 As you know, I'm very into banning AI price fixing overall. 333 00:40:32.974 --> 00:40:37.911 I think I have— my amendment has some line-by-line changes. 334 00:40:38.657 --> 00:40:51.184 And so I am a little concerned about if I go through this and try to explain it to people, if it has the updated line change that then changes all the lettering, that might be hard for people to follow. 335 00:40:51.621 --> 00:40:53.371 But I don't care if other people don't care. 336 00:40:53.548 --> 00:40:55.639 I'm just saying that that might make it harder to explain. 337 00:40:58.070 --> 00:41:04.376 So up to you guys, but I'm just noting that it might be more difficult to follow, but I have ways of making it easier as well if we can. 338 00:41:04.873 --> 00:41:06.367 Let's work through that when we get there. 339 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:06.896 Okay. 340 00:41:07.121 --> 00:41:12.034 Um, and let Councilor Zimmerman, since he's bringing this, get to the version he wants. 341 00:41:12.114 --> 00:41:16.804 And if we need to figure out how to work through the other pieces, we can do that. 342 00:41:17.092 --> 00:41:17.670 Okay, no worries. 343 00:41:17.798 --> 00:41:18.954 Well, I'm fine with this amendment. 344 00:41:19.019 --> 00:41:19.356 Sounds good. 345 00:41:19.405 --> 00:41:20.657 Okay, great. 346 00:41:21.588 --> 00:41:24.431 Wendy, we have a motion and a second. 347 00:41:24.478 --> 00:41:27.385 Could you call the roll on Zimmerman 1, please? 348 00:41:29.157 --> 00:41:32.311 And my apologies, can you tell me who moved that? 349 00:41:32.635 --> 00:41:35.353 Moved by Zimmerman, seconded by Ryan, I believe. 350 00:41:38.211 --> 00:41:40.298 Morillo? 351 00:41:40.396 --> 00:41:40.557 Aye. 352 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:41.188 Zimmerman? 353 00:41:41.918 --> 00:41:41.998 Aye. 354 00:41:43.130 --> 00:41:43.568 Avalos? 355 00:41:43.777 --> 00:41:43.940 Aye. 356 00:41:44.927 --> 00:41:45.202 Ryan? 357 00:41:45.494 --> 00:41:45.541 Aye. 358 00:41:46.384 --> 00:41:46.918 Pirtle-Guiney? 359 00:41:48.918 --> 00:41:48.934 Aye. 360 00:41:49.097 --> 00:41:52.621 Motion to amend the ordinance as shown in Zimmerman 1 passes. 361 00:41:53.527 --> 00:41:53.867 Thank you. 362 00:41:54.012 --> 00:42:03.623 And colleagues, I apologize, as we were having that conversation, we did have somebody in the room sign up So why don't we bring up our testifier and then we'll move into our debate? 363 00:42:04.201 --> 00:42:07.882 Yeah, and I'm going to ask my staff to go print Maria 1 for everybody. 364 00:42:08.090 --> 00:42:08.815 I have it printed. 365 00:42:09.025 --> 00:42:09.539 Oh, thank you. 366 00:42:10.248 --> 00:42:12.760 Never mind. 367 00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:19.277 Madam Chair, do you want me to explain what my amendment does before the person testifies? 368 00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:20.507 Sure. 369 00:42:20.621 --> 00:42:24.923 Why don't we have you walk through the amendment and then before we move into debate, we will hear from our guest testifier. 370 00:42:26.903 --> 00:42:29.240 Okay, so I'll be brief for this. 371 00:42:29.436 --> 00:42:33.217 It's quite technical, so I apologize for folks who have to follow along. 372 00:42:34.177 --> 00:42:40.721 I do have something visually to help make it a little bit easier while we're discussing, but I have an amendment package to introduce. 373 00:42:42.755 --> 00:42:52.594 It's to— I want to be clear that it protects discounts and loyalty programs, and it requires that these retailers offer discounts transparently to everyone who is similarly situated. 374 00:42:53.496 --> 00:43:02.697 This package basically just aligns us with what other states have done and addresses issues of surveillance pricing in practice and also adds some enforcement mechanisms. 375 00:43:03.130 --> 00:43:05.277 So nothing in this limits discounts. 376 00:43:05.695 --> 00:43:08.114 It limits discount size from your personal data. 377 00:43:09.141 --> 00:43:13.998 And I can get into that further, but I just wanted folks who are coming to testify to have a little bit of background on what that does. 378 00:43:14.831 --> 00:43:17.010 And with that, I will pass it off to whoever is coming up. 379 00:43:17.059 --> 00:43:17.331 Thanks. 380 00:43:17.460 --> 00:43:17.876 Great. 381 00:43:17.956 --> 00:43:18.630 Thank you, Councilor. 382 00:43:18.757 --> 00:43:20.472 Wendy, could you please call our testifier? 383 00:43:21.137 --> 00:43:23.903 Rod Pittman, come on up to the dais. 384 00:43:29.809 --> 00:43:30.054 Welcome. 385 00:43:30.152 --> 00:43:31.478 Thank you for being here with us today. 386 00:43:33.708 --> 00:43:38.739 You want to take a seat and introduce yourself for the record so that our staff have that? 387 00:43:38.931 --> 00:43:42.259 And then you'll have— are we— what is our clock set at for today? 388 00:43:42.324 --> 00:43:43.184 3 minutes, Wendy? 389 00:43:43.525 --> 00:43:48.851 It's 3 minutes, and you'll see it as a very small number on the screen in front of you. 390 00:43:50.532 --> 00:43:54.713 Right down there in front of you, in the middle of the circle. 391 00:43:55.661 --> 00:43:56.161 Oh yeah, yeah. 392 00:43:56.304 --> 00:43:56.579 Perfect. 393 00:43:56.659 --> 00:43:58.137 So you'll have 3 minutes to go ahead. 394 00:43:59.025 --> 00:44:01.661 I'm gonna do under 60. 395 00:44:03.445 --> 00:44:19.650 I'm Rod Pittman, and I live in the Johns Landing area, but I've lived all over Portland, you know, Downtown, Sellwood, all over Portland. 396 00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:28.824 And I'm just— I just wanted to come and say how grateful that we are that y'all are addressing all of this stuff. 397 00:44:29.693 --> 00:44:58.034 And because if we can get a handle in on this, then we'll be able to do a much better job of getting the potholes and fixed in the police department, or what they need, and make sure that there's no hanky-panky involved being price fixing and things like that. 398 00:44:59.550 --> 00:45:00.804 Thank you much for your time. 399 00:45:01.163 --> 00:45:01.748 Have a great day. 400 00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:04.989 Thank you so much for being here and for your testimony. 401 00:45:05.054 --> 00:45:06.266