{ "meetingId": "2026-09-22-clc-1", "title": "Portland City Council City Life Committee Meeting 09/22/26", "displayTitle": "City Life Committee Meeting", "date": "2026-09-22T15:07:00-07:00", "duration": 181, "videoUrl": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDPJIdbru4w", "videoId": "NDPJIdbru4w", "agendaUrl": "https://www.portland.gov/council/agenda/city-life-committee/2026/9/22", "agendaItems": [ { "number": 2, "title": "Public input on City Life Committee topics", "type": "Public hearing", "url": "https://www.portland.gov/council/documents/public-hearing/placed-file/2026-338" }, { "number": 3, "title": "Dynamic pricing and surveillance pricing regulation presentation", "type": "Presentation", "url": "https://www.portland.gov/council/documents/presentation/placed-file/2026-287" }, { "number": 4, "title": "Add regulation of dynamic pricing and prohibition of surveillance pricing in Retail Code (add Code Chapter 7.28)", "type": "Ordinance", "url": "https://www.portland.gov/council/documents/ordinance/surveillance-pricing-retail-ban" }, { "number": 5, "title": "Protect Portland firefighters from job-related risks", "type": "Resolution", "url": "https://www.portland.gov/council/documents/resolution/pfas-free-turnouts" }, { "number": 6, "title": "Support the preservation of court access to protect taxpayers from extreme weather costs", "type": "Resolution", "url": "https://www.portland.gov/council/documents/resolution/resolution-affirming-no-immunity-big-oil" } ], "summary": "**The City Life Committee referred a surveillance- and dynamic-pricing ordinance to the full City Council as amended on a 4-1 vote, after rejecting a broader rewrite that would have barred retailers from using personal data to set discounts.** The committee, chaired by Councilor Elana Pirtle-Guiney (District 2), spent roughly two hours on the measure before three other items.\n\n## Pricing ordinance clears committee over one dissent\n\nThe ordinance, introduced by Councilor Eric Zimmerman (District 4), would add Code Chapter 7.28 to bar \"surveillance pricing\" — setting a price for a specific customer from their personal data — and limit \"dynamic pricing\" to one change per calendar day. Zimmerman said the measure targets retail goods, not services, preserves loyalty programs, and would take effect **July 1, 2027**, with penalties of **$1,000** for a first violation in a calendar year, **$5,000** for a second and **$7,500** for later ones, with a 45-day cure for a first violation ([00:24:30](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@00:24:30)). He described the aim as preventing a future \"PII market\" before the technology arrives.\n\nThe committee first adopted a Zimmerman amendment adding a \"retail price\" definition on a **5-0** vote ([00:41:49](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@00:41:49)). It then took up a competing package from Councilor Angelita Morillo (District 3), who argued the underlying ordinance \"does not actually address surveillance pricing as it operates in practice\" and left a loophole allowing data-driven discounts inside loyalty programs. Morillo said that if one shopper pays $4.99 and a neighbor $4.49 for the same item because of their data, \"that's differential pricing, whether the store got there by marking you up or by marking your neighbor down,\" and the store \"will always choose discount\" as the label ([02:00:08](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:00:08)). Her amendment failed **2-3**, with Morillo and Councilor Candace Avalos (District 1) in favor and Zimmerman, Councilor Dan Ryan (District 2) and Pirtle-Guiney opposed ([02:06:40](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:06:40)).\n\nPirtle-Guiney framed the two approaches as distinct — a future practice to stop now versus a current practice warranting deeper study — and said she wanted the surveillance ban \"out the door as quickly as possible\" to signal the Legislature ([01:36:26](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@01:36:26)). The committee referred the amended ordinance **4-1**, Morillo voting \"Regretfully, no\" ([02:11:16](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:11:16)); Avalos voted yes but called her vote \"symbolic\" and reserved the right to seek changes ([02:11:26](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:11:26)).\n\n## Invited testimony on grocery practice\n\nMichael Salvaggio of United Food and Commercial Workers Local 555 backed the Zimmerman draft and named pricing-technology vendors — Nationwide Group, UiPath and Tenging — quoting one marketing line about \"a reduction of missed margin opportunities\" ([00:25:26](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@00:25:26)). Amanda Dalton of the Northwest Grocery Retail Association said grocers \"are not doing this today,\" preferred state action, and opposed Morillo's package, warning it would create a recordkeeping burden and a private right of action with a $1 million cap without the small-grocer exemption Seattle included ([01:03:34](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@01:03:34)). Dalton said four states have passed such laws — Maryland and Connecticut effective in October, plus New Jersey and New York — while Colorado's was vetoed and California's died ([01:28:19](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@01:28:19)). One member of the public, Rod Pittman of Johns Landing, spoke in general support ([00:43:59](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@00:43:59)).\n\nThe debate grew personal when Morillo noted the Oregon Consumer Privacy Act \"was directly fought by the person who is lobbying us\" ([01:49:01](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@01:49:01)). Dalton answered that she \"actually supported it and was on the workgroup... for 2 years.\" Salvaggio then defended her: \"I have never, ever known her to misapply or mislead anyone that she's been in front of\" ([01:51:21](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@01:51:21)). Morillo twice pressed the point that committee is where amendments belong, saying she was \"frustrated that we always talk about committees as being a place to talk through amendments, and then we're resistant to some of that updating\" ([01:17:00](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@01:17:00)). Avalos said \"it just feels like there's always a blocked door instead of an open door\" ([02:01:55](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:01:55)). Ryan cut off further discussion: \"It's time to vote. I call for the vote.\" ([02:01:13](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:01:13)).\n\n## Firefighter PFAS gear fund\n\nThe committee referred a Zimmerman resolution to adopt, **5-0**, creating a PFAS Replacement subfund within the Fire Capital Fund to save general-fund underspend for a future switch to protective gear free of \"forever chemicals\" ([02:44:38](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:44:38)). Zimmerman said occupational cancer is the leading killer of U.S. firefighters. Fire Chief Lauren Johnson told the committee firefighting is classed by the International Agency for Research on Cancer as a Group 1 carcinogen, the category that includes tobacco smoke ([02:30:00](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:30:00)). Johnson said each set of turnout gear costs about **$4,500** today, the bureau buys about **175 sets a year**, and PFAS-free gear is not yet commercially proven; the subfund would let the bureau hold back purchases until a reliable product exists ([02:39:22](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:39:22)). No one testified. Pirtle-Guiney asked Zimmerman to bring information to Council on how the subfund interacts with other financial policies.\n\n## Climate litigation resolution\n\nThe committee referred a resolution from Councilor Steve Novick (District 3) to adopt, **4-1 with one absent**, denouncing a federal \"Stop Climate Shakedowns Act\" that Novick said would bar states, cities and counties from suing fossil fuel companies over climate damages ([02:58:42](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:58:42)). Novick, a former state attorney general's office lawyer, said the resolution quotes the Delaware complaint showing companies knew about climate change \"as far back as 1959.\" Asked by Avalos how this squared with his reservations about a Zenith citizen-suit amendment, Novick distinguished government suits for climate damages from private suits to enforce a contract ([02:52:43](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:52:43)). Cherise Bach, climate policy director for 350 PDX, testified in support with a six-organization sign-on letter and cited a state Climate Superfund bill and the Make Polluters Pay Coalition, noting similar laws in New York and Vermont ([02:48:45](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@02:48:45)). Zimmerman had left at 4:40 p.m. and was absent for the vote.\n\n## Public comment and minutes\n\nThe committee approved draft minutes for three prior meetings by unanimous consent ([00:10:00](meeting:2026-09-22-clc-1@00:10:00)). In open comment, one speaker, Ghalib Ben Imhotep L of District 4, urged a \"Project Zero\" plan for a zero-carbon Portland by 2050 and suggested extending it countywide or statewide.\n\n## What's next\n\nAll three measures move to full City Council with recommendations to adopt. Morillo said she would send her amendment language to Salvaggio's attorney for review before the Council hearing, and Avalos said she would reach out to stakeholders about the pricing ordinance. Zimmerman agreed to bring Council information on how the firefighter subfund fits with existing financial policies. The committee meets again in two weeks for an Advance Portland economic development presentation and a discussion of the city's policy on selling publicly owned land, including a specific request to transfer city property to a private entity.", "summaryText": "The City Life Committee referred a surveillance- and dynamic-pricing ordinance to the full City Council as amended on a 4-1 vote, after rejecting a broader rewrite that would have barred retailers from using personal data to set discounts. The committee, chaired by Councilor Elana Pirtle-Guiney (District 2), spent roughly two hours on the measure before three other items.\n\nThe ordinance, introduced by Councilor Eric Zimmerman (District 4), would add Code Chapter 7.28 to bar \"surveillance pricing\" — setting a price for a specific customer from their personal data — and limit \"dynamic pricing\" to one change per calendar day. Zimmerman said the measure targets retail goods, not services, preserves loyalty programs, and would take effect July 1, 2027, with penalties of $1,000 for a first violation in a calendar year, $5,000 for a second and $7,500 for later ones, with a 45-day cure for a first violation (00:24:30). He described the aim as preventing a future \"PII market\" before the technology arrives.\n\nThe committee first adopted a Zimmerman amendment adding a \"retail price\" definition on a 5-0 vote (00:41:49). It then took up a competing package from Councilor Angelita Morillo (District 3), who argued the underlying ordinance \"does not actually address surveillance pricing as it operates in practice\" and left a loophole allowing data-driven discounts inside loyalty programs. Morillo said that if one shopper pays $4.99 and a neighbor $4.49 for the same item because of their data, \"that's differential pricing, whether the store got there by marking you up or by marking your neighbor down,\" and the store \"will always choose discount\" as the label (02:00:08). Her amendment failed 2-3, with Morillo and Councilor Candace Avalos (District 1) in favor and Zimmerman, Councilor Dan Ryan (District 2) and Pirtle-Guiney opposed (02:06:40).\n\nPirtle-Guiney framed the two approaches as distinct — a future practice to stop now versus a current practice warranting deeper study — and said she wanted the surveillance ban \"out the door as quickly as possible\" to signal the Legislature (01:36:26). The committee referred the amended ordinance 4-1, Morillo voting \"Regretfully, no\" (02:11:16); Avalos voted yes but called her vote \"symbolic\" and reserved the right to seek changes (02:11:26).\n\nMichael Salvaggio of United Food and Commercial Workers Local 555 backed the Zimmerman draft and named pricing-technology vendors — Nationwide Group, UiPath and Tenging — quoting one marketing line about \"a reduction of missed margin opportunities\" (00:25:26). Amanda Dalton of the Northwest Grocery Retail Association said grocers \"are not doing this today,\" preferred state action, and opposed Morillo's package, warning it would create a recordkeeping burden and a private right of action with a $1 million cap without the small-grocer exemption Seattle included (01:03:34). Dalton said four states have passed such laws — Maryland and Connecticut effective in October, plus New Jersey and New York — while Colorado's was vetoed and California's died (01:28:19). One member of the public, Rod Pittman of Johns Landing, spoke in general support (00:43:59).\n\nThe debate grew personal when Morillo noted the Oregon Consumer Privacy Act \"was directly fought by the person who is lobbying us\" (01:49:01). Dalton answered that she \"actually supported it and was on the workgroup... for 2 years.\" Salvaggio then defended her: \"I have never, ever known her to misapply or mislead anyone that she's been in front of\" (01:51:21). Morillo twice pressed the point that committee is where amendments belong, saying she was \"frustrated that we always talk about committees as being a place to talk through amendments, and then we're resistant to some of that updating\" (01:17:00). Avalos said \"it just feels like there's always a blocked door instead of an open door\" (02:01:55). Ryan cut off further discussion: \"It's time to vote. I call for the vote.\" (02:01:13).\n\nThe committee referred a Zimmerman resolution to adopt, 5-0, creating a PFAS Replacement subfund within the Fire Capital Fund to save general-fund underspend for a future switch to protective gear free of \"forever chemicals\" (02:44:38). Zimmerman said occupational cancer is the leading killer of U.S. firefighters. Fire Chief Lauren Johnson told the committee firefighting is classed by the International Agency for Research on Cancer as a Group 1 carcinogen, the category that includes tobacco smoke (02:30:00). Johnson said each set of turnout gear costs about $4,500 today, the bureau buys about 175 sets a year, and PFAS-free gear is not yet commercially proven; the subfund would let the bureau hold back purchases until a reliable product exists (02:39:22). No one testified. Pirtle-Guiney asked Zimmerman to bring information to Council on how the subfund interacts with other financial policies.\n\nThe committee referred a resolution from Councilor Steve Novick (District 3) to adopt, 4-1 with one absent, denouncing a federal \"Stop Climate Shakedowns Act\" that Novick said would bar states, cities and counties from suing fossil fuel companies over climate damages (02:58:42). Novick, a former state attorney general's office lawyer, said the resolution quotes the Delaware complaint showing companies knew about climate change \"as far back as 1959.\" Asked by Avalos how this squared with his reservations about a Zenith citizen-suit amendment, Novick distinguished government suits for climate damages from private suits to enforce a contract (02:52:43). Cherise Bach, climate policy director for 350 PDX, testified in support with a six-organization sign-on letter and cited a state Climate Superfund bill and the Make Polluters Pay Coalition, noting similar laws in New York and Vermont (02:48:45). Zimmerman had left at 4:40 p.m. and was absent for the vote.\n\nThe committee approved draft minutes for three prior meetings by unanimous consent (00:10:00). In open comment, one speaker, Ghalib Ben Imhotep L of District 4, urged a \"Project Zero\" plan for a zero-carbon Portland by 2050 and suggested extending it countywide or statewide.\n\nAll three measures move to full City Council with recommendations to adopt. Morillo said she would send her amendment language to Salvaggio's attorney for review before the Council hearing, and Avalos said she would reach out to stakeholders about the pricing ordinance. Zimmerman agreed to bring Council information on how the firefighter subfund fits with existing financial policies. The committee meets again in two weeks for an Advance Portland economic development presentation and a discussion of the city's policy on selling publicly owned land, including a specific request to transfer city property to a private entity.", "summaryLede": "The City Life Committee referred a surveillance- and dynamic-pricing ordinance to the full City Council as amended on a 4-1 vote, after rejecting a broader rewrite that would have barred retailers from using personal data to set discounts. The committee, chaired by Councilor Elana Pirtle-Guiney (District 2), spent roughly two hours on the measure before three other items.", "sections": [ { "title": "Minutes approval", "startTime": "00:07:09.677", "endTime": "00:10:13.158", "items": [ { "title": "City Life Committee draft meeting minutes for July 14, 2026, July 28, 2026, and August 11, 2026", "startTime": "00:07:09.677", "endTime": "00:10:13.158", "agendaItemNumber": 1 } ] }, { "title": "Regular agenda", "startTime": "00:10:13.158", "endTime": "03:00:15.805", "items": [ { "title": "Public input on City Life Committee topics (Public hearing)", "startTime": "00:10:13.158", "endTime": "00:14:14.038", "agendaItemNumber": 2 }, { "title": "Dynamic pricing and surveillance pricing regulation presentation (Presentation)", "startTime": "00:14:14.038", "endTime": "00:36:20.596", "agendaItemNumber": 3 }, { "title": "Add regulation of dynamic pricing and prohibition of surveillance pricing in Retail Code (add Code Chapter 7.28) (Ordinance)", "startTime": "00:36:20.596", "endTime": "02:24:15.036", "agendaItemNumber": 4 }, { "title": "Protect Portland firefighters from job-related risks (Resolution)", "startTime": "02:24:15.036", "endTime": "02:45:05.157", "agendaItemNumber": 5 }, { "title": "Support the preservation of court access to protect taxpayers from extreme weather costs (Resolution)", "startTime": "02:45:05.157", "endTime": "03:00:15.805", "agendaItemNumber": 6 } ] } ], "cues": [ { "id": "cue-1", "start": 429.678, "end": 430.61, "text": "Good afternoon.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-2", "start": 430.803, "end": 433.952, "text": "It is 2:02 PM on Tuesday, September 22nd.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-3", "start": 434.097, "end": 437.937, "text": "I am calling to order today's City Life Committee.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-4", "start": 438.802, "end": 440.274, "text": "Wendy, can you please call the roll?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-5", "start": 444.258, "end": 445.319, "text": "Good afternoon, Maria.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-6", "start": 446.963, "end": 447.011, "text": "Here.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-7", "start": 447.204, "end": 447.655, "text": "Zimmerman.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-8", "start": 448.974, "end": 449.086, "text": "Here.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-9", "start": 449.923, "end": 450.309, "text": "Avalos.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-10", "start": 450.47, "end": 450.76, "text": "Present.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-11", "start": 451.853, "end": 452.159, "text": "Ryan.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-12", "start": 452.416, "end": 452.674, "text": "Here.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-13", "start": 453.06, "end": 453.526, "text": "Pirtle-Guiney.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-14", "start": 454.122, "end": 454.315, "text": "Here.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-15", "start": 454.749, "end": 457.594, "text": "And Kevin, could you please read us our statement of conduct?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-16", "start": 459.02, "end": 461.2, "text": "Welcome to the meeting of the City Life Committee.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-17", "start": 461.556, "end": 468.325, "text": "To testify before this committee in person or virtually, you must sign up in advance on the committee agenda at www.portland.gov/council/agenda/citylife.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-18", "start": 473.966, "end": 476.659, "text": "Life Committee, or by calling 311.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-19", "start": 477.188, "end": 480.17, "text": "Information on engaging with the committee can be found at this link.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-20", "start": 480.635, "end": 484.274, "text": "Registration for virtual testimony closes 1 hour prior to the meeting.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-21", "start": 484.803, "end": 487.977, "text": "In-person testifiers must sign up before the agenda item is heard.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-22", "start": 488.57, "end": 494.469, "text": "If public testimony will be taken on an item, individuals may testify for 3 minutes unless the chair states otherwise.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-23", "start": 494.902, "end": 497.37, "text": "Your microphone will be muted when your time is over.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-24", "start": 497.948, "end": 498.957, "text": "The chair preserves order.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-25", "start": 499.406, "end": 513.911, "text": "Disruptive conduct such as shouting, refusing to conclude your testimony when your time is up, or interrupting others' testimony further disruption will result in ejection from the meeting.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-26", "start": 514.426, "end": 518.272, "text": "Anyone who fails to leave once ejected is subject to arrest for trespass.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-27", "start": 518.789, "end": 522.488, "text": "Additionally, the committee may take a short recess and reconvene virtually.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-28", "start": 522.972, "end": 524.959, "text": "Your testimony should address the matter being considered.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-29", "start": 525.51, "end": 528.136, "text": "When testifying, one, state your name for the record.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-30", "start": 528.442, "end": 530.923, "text": "If you are a lobbyist, identify the organization you represent.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-31", "start": 530.972, "end": 531.084, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-32", "start": 531.356, "end": 535.608, "text": "And 2, virtual testifiers should unmute themselves when the clerk calls your name.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-33", "start": 536.123, "end": 536.429, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-34", "start": 538.12, "end": 539.634, "text": "Thank you very much, colleagues.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-35", "start": 539.811, "end": 547.781, "text": "At our last meeting, we got to dive deep on a big topic that we hope will lead to some legislation down the road.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-36", "start": 548.394, "end": 553.479, "text": "Next meeting, we will dive deep on a different topic through our Advance Portland presentation.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-37", "start": 553.527, "end": 559.483, "text": "We'll get to look at economic development and then work on a couple of ordinances brought forth by the administration.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-38", "start": 559.533, "end": 571.097, "text": "But today we get to do some work on items brought forward so we have 3 main items on the agenda today that we'll be hearing, uh, 2 brought by Councilor Zimmerman and one from Councilor Novick.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-39", "start": 571.742, "end": 574.724, "text": "Uh, before we dive in though, I think we have to approve some minutes.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-40", "start": 574.773, "end": 577.135, "text": "So Wendy, could you please call the first item on the agenda?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-41", "start": 579.796, "end": 580.136, "text": "Certainly.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-42", "start": 580.281, "end": 587.619, "text": "Item number 1, City Life Committee meeting minutes for July 14th, July 28th, and August 11th, 2026.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-43", "start": 591.042, "end": 594.025, "text": "And colleagues, is there any opposition to the minutes?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-44", "start": 594.122, "end": 596.57, "text": "If not, I believe we can approve them by unanimous consent.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-45", "start": 598.368, "end": 599.626, "text": "Seeing none.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-46", "start": 601.619, "end": 602.975, "text": "Okay, minutes approved.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-47", "start": 604.95, "end": 609.117, "text": "And that moves us to our public input.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-48", "start": 609.182, "end": 611.355, "text": "Wendy, could you please call the next item on the agenda?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-49", "start": 613.159, "end": 618.601, "text": "Item number 2, document number 2026-338, public input on City Life Committee topics.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-50", "start": 619.794, "end": 621.886, "text": "We have one person signed up to testify.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-51", "start": 624.15, "end": 626.689, "text": "Ghalib El, come on up.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-52", "start": 628.25, "end": 628.573, "text": "Welcome.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-53", "start": 632.549, "end": 641.716, "text": "And my apologies, just, uh, we're having some trouble with the timer, so you, um, you'll see the timer on the screen, but you will not get that 30-second warning that we normally do.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-54", "start": 642.024, "end": 645.549, "text": "Well, I timed this thing, so it should come in around 2:55-ish, hopefully.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-55", "start": 647.87, "end": 648.113, "text": "Perfect.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-56", "start": 648.291, "end": 649.814, "text": "Greetings, beloved committee members.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-57", "start": 650.009, "end": 659.42, "text": "I am Ghalib Ben Imhotep L. My district is Domicile 4, and when I last spoke before you, I expressed my dedication to Project Zero.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-58", "start": 660.967, "end": 663.481, "text": "It's more than just a dedication, it is a will.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-59", "start": 664.29, "end": 668.956, "text": "By 2050, Portland will be a zero-carbon emission city.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-60", "start": 670.018, "end": 672.493, "text": "The written testimony that I submitted 2 weeks ago.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-61", "start": 673.091, "end": 674.739, "text": "It had a couple of visual flubs in it.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-62", "start": 674.933, "end": 675.03, "text": "I—.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-63", "start": 675.03, "end": 677.76, "text": "It's the first time I used PowerPoint in a while.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-64", "start": 678.229, "end": 678.859, "text": "I was a little rusty.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-65", "start": 679.709, "end": 684.604, "text": "I resubmitted it recently, and hopefully it's a little bit more comprehensible and able to be comprehended.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-66", "start": 686.648, "end": 697.226, "text": "I am that I am, a solution-oriented being that believes that economy and ecology are not just synonymous, they are one in the same.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-67", "start": 698.661, "end": 700.208, "text": "Portland's economy is suffering.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-68", "start": 700.982, "end": 701.607, "text": "That is obvious.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-69", "start": 702.92, "end": 704.702, "text": "Data centers ruin ecology.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-70", "start": 705.545, "end": 706.599, "text": "That too is obvious.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-71", "start": 709.962, "end": 719.728, "text": "Given the previous statements, it is only logical to state that there is no economical benefit to a data center if it does not support the local ecology.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-72", "start": 720.977, "end": 723.538, "text": "But I am not here to discuss the controversy of the data centers.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-73", "start": 723.717, "end": 726.767, "text": "I am here because Mother Earth beckons me to action.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-74", "start": 728.793, "end": 741.594, "text": "If I do not act, if I sit idly by and let things happen, who knows what sort of ecological travesties will befall this area or, or here.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-75", "start": 742.372, "end": 742.938, "text": "Excuse me.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-76", "start": 743.91, "end": 744.429, "text": "Excuse me.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-77", "start": 746.502, "end": 747.215, "text": "Lost my place there.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-78", "start": 749.133, "end": 751.434, "text": "But that's not a sustainable way of thinking.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-79", "start": 752.518, "end": 754.191, "text": "It's not the right way of being.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-80", "start": 755.253, "end": 757.247, "text": "I am the promoter of a progressive Portland.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-81", "start": 757.746, "end": 762.236, "text": "I have a minor background in law, though I have passed no bar exam and I'm no licensed attorney.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-82", "start": 762.768, "end": 769.304, "text": "I do realize that there are barriers to what can and can't be done according to Oregon Revised Statutes and state ordinance and municipal policy.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-83", "start": 770.337, "end": 780.528, "text": "But Mother Earth does not, will not, and is not in, in any sort of manner supposed to have to bend her will to those things.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-84", "start": 780.64, "end": 780.737, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-85", "start": 781.448, "end": 785.463, "text": "When things get too hectic, Mother Earth cleanses and then starts all over again.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-86", "start": 786.426, "end": 787.695, "text": "Humanity cannot afford this.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-87", "start": 788.691, "end": 790.265, "text": "Portland will not experience this.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-88", "start": 791.035, "end": 793.203, "text": "I have submitted another document for the committee's review.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-89", "start": 794.167, "end": 801.041, "text": "If it's agreeable, maybe this document can be presented to Multnomah County for a countywide or even a statewide Project Zero.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-90", "start": 802.326, "end": 803.289, "text": "We sit on a precipice.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-91", "start": 804.333, "end": 811.708, "text": "We are powerful enough to dictate whether we fall off that cliff Or whether we spread our wings and fly like the celestial beings that we are.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-92", "start": 813.37, "end": 814.338, "text": "That choice is yours.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-93", "start": 815.242, "end": 816.275, "text": "That choice is mine.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-94", "start": 816.873, "end": 818.035, "text": "That choice is Portland's.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-95", "start": 818.729, "end": 820.021, "text": "That choice is Oregon's.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-96", "start": 820.893, "end": 822.007, "text": "The power is yours.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-97", "start": 823.03, "end": 824.806, "text": "It resides in your hands.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-98", "start": 825.888, "end": 833.23, "text": "Wield it wisely and know without an iota of if that I love you all unconditionally.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-99", "start": 833.329, "end": 833.935, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-100", "start": 834.066, "end": 834.411, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Ghalib Ben Imhotep L" }, { "id": "cue-101", "start": 836.097, "end": 837.874, "text": "Thank you for being here and for the documents.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-102", "start": 840.86, "end": 842.189, "text": "That concludes public input.", "speaker": "Keelan McClymont" }, { "id": "cue-103", "start": 843.47, "end": 843.827, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-104", "start": 844.54, "end": 849.219, "text": "Wendy, could you open the next 2 items, items 2 and 3?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-105", "start": 849.396, "end": 851.95, "text": "No, items 3 and 4, I believe.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-106", "start": 852.512, "end": 853.155, "text": "Yes, thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-107", "start": 854.038, "end": 872.506, "text": "Items 3 and 4, documents number 2026-287, Dynamic Pricing and Surveillance Pricing Regulation Presentation, and 2026-288, add regulation of dynamic pricing and prohibition of surveillance pricing in retail code.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-108", "start": 873.003, "end": 875.504, "text": "Add Code Chapter 7.28.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-109", "start": 876.547, "end": 877.509, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-110", "start": 877.653, "end": 883.474, "text": "And I am going to turn it over to Councilor Zimmerman, and I believe you and your staff have a presentation for us.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-111", "start": 884.228, "end": 884.725, "text": "We do.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-112", "start": 884.821, "end": 885.847, "text": "Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-113", "start": 885.928, "end": 886.986, "text": "It's great to be here.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-114", "start": 887.066, "end": 892.47, "text": "I do have both Luke and Daniel from my team at the dais who will help with the presentation.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-115", "start": 892.582, "end": 898.968, "text": "But as we go through this, I know there'll be some aspect of, defining certain things.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-116", "start": 899.308, "end": 906.328, "text": "And so that's what this presentation is going to attempt to do while we also lay out both a problem and a solution.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-117", "start": 907.18, "end": 908.807, "text": "If we can go to the next slide.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-118", "start": 909.165, "end": 919.829, "text": "The Consumers Opposed to Surveillance Technology, or the COST Ordinance, is really trying to face a problem that is— we just heard about being on the precipice of something.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-119", "start": 919.958, "end": 936.622, "text": "We're on the precipice of technology moving fast enough and faster than, frankly, I think consumers can, to the point where we can see that technology is headed toward a surveillance-based or an AI-enhanced price-setting model within the retail market.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-120", "start": 937.424, "end": 945.535, "text": "And so from the perspective of our office and others, it's that if we can get in front of this issue, we have a chance here.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-121", "start": 946.112, "end": 950.376, "text": "So going to the next slide, I want to just define a few terms.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-122", "start": 950.424, "end": 958.961, "text": "Dynamic pricing of altering the price of an item for all customers in real time based on external factors such as weather, demand, time of day, and availability of supply.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-123", "start": 959.715, "end": 968.853, "text": "Surveillance is based— setting the price of an item for a specific customer based on information acquired through their personal data, some history, income, and demographic profiles.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-124", "start": 969.432, "end": 973.157, "text": "Retail vendor— any business that sells goods to customers within the City of Portland.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-125", "start": 973.222, "end": 978.505, "text": "And third-party service providers— any business that delivers goods to customers of a retail vendor.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-126", "start": 979.549, "end": 981.332, "text": "Uh, just noting that neither dynamic yeah.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-127", "start": 981.412, "end": 991.37, "text": "Not that dynamic pricing nor surveillance pricing are all about the cost of goods so much as— and the cost of labor, but that dynamic and surveillance pricing usually comes after we've seen original prices set.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-128", "start": 991.595, "end": 992.623, "text": "So just keep that in mind.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-129", "start": 993.137, "end": 999.513, "text": "We're already on to the next slide, and I just— in terms of the public reaction, the public is already familiar with dynamic pricing.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-130", "start": 999.561, "end": 1008.315, "text": "This is a common practice that we see in rideshare, airlines, hotels, those types of services that a person buys.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-131", "start": 1010.643, "end": 1017.025, "text": "Applying that to retail goods, and retail goods is what today is really about.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-132", "start": 1017.763, "end": 1033.463, "text": "I say that because I want to make sure I underline for you that today's ordinance is not, is not taking any action against the service industry, and there's more to come on that, but I wanted to be very clear we're talking about retail goods.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-133", "start": 1034.217, "end": 1035.804, "text": "Moving to the next slide, thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-134", "start": 1036.783, "end": 1042.659, "text": "You've seen some stuff across the country that cities and states around the nation have started to act.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-135", "start": 1042.787, "end": 1056.69, "text": "Even our own Senator Merkley and Representative Hoyle, both from Oregon, have been trying to work federal legislation to halt this type of what could be potential price manipulation in the retail goods, but certainly what we're seeing in the services area.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-136", "start": 1057.573, "end": 1062.999, "text": "We've listed here some states who've already tried to take some action or successfully taken some action.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-137", "start": 1063.898, "end": 1073.403, "text": "And we'll just say that as technology moves rapidly in this moment, when all things related to technology advances, I think everybody's trying to keep up here.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-138", "start": 1073.805, "end": 1088.705, "text": "So moving to the next, the reason that we're bringing this forward to you is really in terms of ensuring that Portland doesn't slide any further away from making sure that everybody's treated fairly when they're in the retail market.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-139", "start": 1088.802, "end": 1101.855, "text": "That we're talking about affordability, we're talking about a consumer protection issue, and ultimately this comes down to a fairness issue for all shoppers and ensuring that your private information is not used to set prices for you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-140", "start": 1103.63, "end": 1109.007, "text": "So what does the cost ordinance do and how does it regulate?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-141", "start": 1109.169, "end": 1122.557, "text": "So in terms of how does it regulate dynamic pricing, prices cannot be increased more than once In a calendar day and applies to all retail vendors and third-party delivery service providers.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-142", "start": 1124.691, "end": 1140.678, "text": "In our discussions about what is a norm within the market, we've found that a once-a-day price change is quite reasonable and that we're all familiar with the need to move— I'm going to use grocery as an instance— but the need to move a product.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-143", "start": 1140.726, "end": 1140.791, "text": "Yes.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-144", "start": 1142.107, "end": 1157.564, "text": "None of this gets in the way of that, but making sure that if you went to the store, you know, at 10 AM versus 1 PM, that there's a reasonable expectation that prices remain the same unless it's part of a program set of changes.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-145", "start": 1158.158, "end": 1159.809, "text": "So what does it do for surveillance pricing?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-146", "start": 1160.338, "end": 1173.988, "text": "It really means that personal data, including any of your protected class data, cannot be used to establish a retail price specifically to you, is an important and it applies to all retail vendors and third-party delivery service providers.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-147", "start": 1174.977, "end": 1176.097, "text": "We can go to the next slide.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-148", "start": 1179.03, "end": 1189.265, "text": "Actually, excuse me, before I talk about this a little bit, I do want to just say in terms of what does the ordinance do, we also have the ordinance not taking place until July 1st, 2027.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-149", "start": 1190.36, "end": 1201.138, "text": "So really, given the timeline of this council and how it comes out of— if it comes out, if you all decide to send it to council, I see that as basically coming up to be yeah.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-150", "start": 1201.202, "end": 1204.511, "text": "So we're talking between 6 to 9 months before going live.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-151", "start": 1204.977, "end": 1211.209, "text": "But the good thing here is that generally we don't believe and have not heard from retailers that this is already a technology in place.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-152", "start": 1211.482, "end": 1218.244, "text": "And so what we'd be sending is a signal to folks who do business in Portland of, we know you're getting pitched on this technology.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-153", "start": 1219.175, "end": 1223.528, "text": "We're telling you, don't invest in that kind of capital expansion because we're not going to allow it here.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-154", "start": 1223.93, "end": 1227.993, "text": "But this is what you see in terms of our day here, or of our implementation.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-155", "start": 1228.909, "end": 1246.933, "text": "The provisions this will cover matters that are not preempted by state or federal law, and we're not trying to create a complicated patchwork, which is why you see some pretty broad terms in order to avoid loopholes and what-ifs and just be very straightforward with Portlanders, with consumers, and with businesses.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-156", "start": 1248.86, "end": 1262.337, "text": "I also want to be really clear, just given the nature of this conversation across the country, that this ordinance is not prohibiting the use of electronic shelf labels, as you saw in the picture in the opening of this.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-157", "start": 1263.17, "end": 1266.848, "text": "The label themselves is not the concerning aspect.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-158", "start": 1266.912, "end": 1272.043, "text": "It is the technology that is enabled to exploit based on the use of labels.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-159", "start": 1272.236, "end": 1277.588, "text": "And so we're going to go after the technology and the exploitative stuff instead of just the change in label technology.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-160", "start": 1278.916, "end": 1285.623, "text": "So, uh, in this discussion, it is inherent, you're going to get to the point where you talk about loyalty programs.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-161", "start": 1285.687, "end": 1299.843, "text": "And loyalty programs mean things like Safeway Rewards, Fred Meyer Rewards, Costco memberships, Amazon Prime memberships— those types of things that we all are aware, well aware of, and many people are members of.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-162", "start": 1300.436, "end": 1305.053, "text": "That this does not attack any of those typical programs and those that are set up for their consumers.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-163", "start": 1305.165, "end": 1310.744, "text": "The cost ordinance doesn't limit or regulate discounts and sales and loyalty programs.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-164", "start": 1311.161, "end": 1316.677, "text": "Retailers can still continue to offer those discounts to attract customers, to build that customer base.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-165", "start": 1317.511, "end": 1322.369, "text": "Membership and loyalty and rewards subscription are all untouched in this.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-166", "start": 1323.203, "end": 1331.926, "text": "Signing up for a mailing list or agreeing to share your personal data, registering for promotions, communications, those are all, I think, things we're used to.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-167", "start": 1332.423, "end": 1356.548, "text": "Another area that we're not trying to attack here and making sure is protected is If a person is part of a professional group, so we see veterans discounts, we see teachers discounts, sometimes we see student discounts, sometimes residents of a certain area, maybe a neighborhood has said we're going to have a promotion for members of this neighborhood, youth and senior citizens.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-168", "start": 1356.644, "end": 1361.348, "text": "These are all things that I think are fairly common within the American consumer market and we're all quite used to.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-169", "start": 1361.798, "end": 1363.003, "text": "And I want to be clear that this yes.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-170", "start": 1363.084, "end": 1365.713, "text": "Is not changing anything for them.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-171", "start": 1366.395, "end": 1369.867, "text": "And of course, your coupons, promotions, things of that nature.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-172", "start": 1371.31, "end": 1385.465, "text": "What we're really trying to say is that retailers can set different service-based fees on objective costs for delivering prices and goods, but that's between them and their consumer and how they're going to be competitive in the market, and that those loyalty programs are part of that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-173", "start": 1386.662, "end": 1391.144, "text": "So in terms of if this were to go forward, how would a cost ordinance be enforced?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-174", "start": 1391.532, "end": 1396.635, "text": "The law has a penalty structure with opportunities to cure any violations.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-175", "start": 1397.325, "end": 1406.905, "text": "And so we see that basically go through the typical city administrator's office/hearings officer program that we see in other parts of the city.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-176", "start": 1407.803, "end": 1412.216, "text": "If a violation is determined, a penalty can be assessed on a retailer or a delivery provider.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-177", "start": 1412.377, "end": 1418.667, "text": "If it's a violation for— it is a violation for each consumer for whom a price has been set in a non-compliant manner.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-178", "start": 1419.212, "end": 1427.961, "text": "And penalties can be waived if the violation is cured within 45 days after the notice is received by the business for the first violation in a 24-month period.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-179", "start": 1428.49, "end": 1439.098, "text": "I want to just note here a little bit of our approach in working to come up with an enforcement and a violation structure, which was we are getting ahead of a technology.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-180", "start": 1439.403, "end": 1443.377, "text": "We're asking, we're asking the market not to adopt a certain type of technology.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-181", "start": 1444.435, "end": 1451.771, "text": "And I think that that's important because we're laying out a set of expectations for what it would be like to be a consumer in Portland.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-182", "start": 1452.317, "end": 1464.777, "text": "And so while we have some flexibility in here, I also expect that if we set a standard early and now, we can avoid a significant number of issues because we won't be unraveling a current practice.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-183", "start": 1464.841, "end": 1466.575, "text": "We're actually preventing a future practice.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-184", "start": 1467.153, "end": 1484.32, "text": "So just to kind of get you an idea for what a penalty amount might look like if If we pass such a thing, is that it's noted in the ordinance as $1,000 for the first violation in a calendar year, $5,000 for a second violation in that same calendar year, and $7,500 for any subsequent violation in the same calendar year.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-185", "start": 1484.39, "end": 1491.57, "text": "And that's how that's laid out going through our typical human— excuse me, hearings officer.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-186", "start": 1491.57, "end": 1498.05, "text": "I do want to invite up some members of the community who've helped us draft some of this legislation.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-187", "start": 1498.13, "end": 1500.67, "text": "Mike Salvaggio from United Food and Commercial Workers Local 555.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-188", "start": 1500.67, "end": 1500.69, "text": "Hi.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-189", "start": 1502.586, "end": 1507.738, "text": "If you wouldn't mind joining us at the dais, and Amanda Dalton from the Northwest Grocery Retail Association.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-190", "start": 1507.819, "end": 1511.811, "text": "I'd invite you both up as invited testimony, and I thank you guys for your time.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-191", "start": 1511.86, "end": 1514.652, "text": "I know you were here about a month ago, so thank you for coming back.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-192", "start": 1521.872, "end": 1524.615, "text": "Mike, do you want to start since you're on the top of the list?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-193", "start": 1526.104, "end": 1529.844, "text": "Thank you, Madam Chair, Mr. Councilor, members of the committee.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-194", "start": 1530.718, "end": 1532.436, "text": "For the record, my name is Michael Salvaggio.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-195", "start": 1532.725, "end": 1537.654, "text": "I am here representing United Food and Commercial Workers Local 555.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-196", "start": 1538.586, "end": 1545.426, "text": "We have tens of thousands of members in Oregon and bits of Washington and Idaho.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-197", "start": 1546.212, "end": 1548.846, "text": "We are Oregon's largest private sector union.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-198", "start": 1549.199, "end": 1559.644, "text": "And if you are shopping at a Safeway, Fred Meyer, Albertsons, or a number of other stores in the area, you're probably interacting with our members.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-199", "start": 1561.966, "end": 1580.122, "text": "The reason that we've brought this up is that like many Portlanders, our members are struggling with not only high but unpredictable prices that are the effect of a number of different factors that are going on in our country and in the world right now.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-200", "start": 1582.433, "end": 1589.808, "text": "Compounding that though, as Councilor Zimmerman mentioned, what we see on the horizon with regard to these emerging technologies.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-201", "start": 1591.92, "end": 1618.664, "text": "The advent of electronic shelving labels is, again, as Councilor Zimmerman noted, not in and of itself nefarious, but the ability of some of these third-party technology providers to then go ahead and pitch certain products that are attached to those is what really has kind of got our backup.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-202", "start": 1620.952, "end": 1627.267, "text": "And I want to say for the record, we're not talking about the Kroger Company or Safeway Albertsons.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-203", "start": 1627.379, "end": 1635.338, "text": "We're talking about companies that the average Portlander probably has never heard of, such as Nationwide Group or UiPath or Tenging.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-204", "start": 1635.516, "end": 1635.985, "text": "Tenging.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-205", "start": 1637.453, "end": 1641.869, "text": "These are companies that are not really hiding their hands in terms of what they're pitching.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-206", "start": 1643.028, "end": 1663.679, "text": "They're actively suggesting to retailers to use this technology for things like, and I'll just kind of quote, this is from Nationwide Group, by using digital price tags, product pricing is automatically updated, resulting in a reduction of missed margin opportunities.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-207", "start": 1664.292, "end": 1670.492, "text": "Or to put that another way, if there's an opportunity to charge the customer a higher price, we're not gonna miss that.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-208", "start": 1671.52, "end": 1697.256, "text": "We see elements such as agentic AI at work, which means an AI system that is acting on its own without a human intermediary in order to, as one other provider puts it, quote, interpret customer context from live data and every pricing decision is predicated, optimized, and executed automatically.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-209", "start": 1698.25, "end": 1704.087, "text": "These are the types of invasive pricing models that we're concerned about in the future.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-210", "start": 1704.745, "end": 1716.098, "text": "And so again, as Councilor Zimmerman, and I'm gonna refer to Councilor Zimmerman a lot given that he made a good presentation, as the Councilor said, this is—.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-211", "start": 1716.13, "end": 1716.291, "text": "Yeah.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-212", "start": 1717.014, "end": 1725.164, "text": "Not something where we're gonna pass a measure and then people are gonna go to the grocery store and see something drastically different than they did before.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-213", "start": 1725.373, "end": 1726.519, "text": "This is preventative.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-214", "start": 1728.279, "end": 1732.851, "text": "And so we have a draft that we see here.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-215", "start": 1733.853, "end": 1736.676, "text": "We're, just for the record, in favor of the draft.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-216", "start": 1737.207, "end": 1744.453, "text": "We're probably going to be doing some additional work at the state level on this for things that the city's not able to tackle.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-217", "start": 1744.534, "end": 1744.887, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-218", "start": 1746.644, "end": 1761.955, "text": "But the— I did want to put a few things on the record as well, and that is our organization's desire to make sure that those loyalty programs are protected.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-219", "start": 1763.09, "end": 1778.742, "text": "When we talk about loyalty programs, you know, we were thinking of that Fred Meyer card, that Safeway card, things that are keeping customers coming back to that union store, we want to keep those in place because we do want those customers to keep on coming back to those union stores.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-220", "start": 1779.479, "end": 1795.937, "text": "And so whatever measure or adjustments or amendments are being considered or come down the pike, or if they stay as is, we just want to make sure that we're conveying our desire to hold those programs harmless.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-221", "start": 1795.985, "end": 1796.145, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-222", "start": 1798.174, "end": 1807.306, "text": "And I'm sure there's plenty more I could say, but I will save some for questions in case anyone wants to dig in a little deeper on that.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-223", "start": 1808.93, "end": 1810.314, "text": "Thank you, Mr. Salvaggio.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-224", "start": 1810.395, "end": 1816.207, "text": "Appreciate you spending so much time with us both last month and now and helping us understand this topic even better.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-225", "start": 1816.545, "end": 1817.173, "text": "Always a pleasure.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-226", "start": 1817.415, "end": 1817.624, "text": "Yeah.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-227", "start": 1817.914, "end": 1818.736, "text": "Amanda, do you want to go ahead?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-228", "start": 1819.108, "end": 1819.447, "text": "Absolutely.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-229", "start": 1819.981, "end": 1822.405, "text": "Chair Pirtle-Guiney, members of the committee, Amanda Dalton.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-230", "start": 1822.518, "end": 1825.121, "text": "I'm the president of the Northwest Grocery Retail Association.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-231", "start": 1825.266, "end": 1835.484, "text": "Our members include large and small grocery retailers, delivery partners, and companies that stock your store shelves across the city, including in Oregon and Washington and Idaho.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-232", "start": 1835.58, "end": 1847.895, "text": "I do also want to echo the thanks and appreciation to Councilor Zimmerman and his team— nice to see you— who has really put a ton of work into the amended ordinance that's before you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-233", "start": 1849.051, "end": 1854.076, "text": "As you've heard, this is an issue that's being debated across the country, and right now elsewhere who are in our region.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-234", "start": 1854.83, "end": 1858.953, "text": "It won't surprise you that we believe an issue like this is better addressed at the state level.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-235", "start": 1859.177, "end": 1867.327, "text": "Shoppers, retailers, delivery networks don't stop at city boundaries, and a patchwork of different local requirements does create real challenges.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-236", "start": 1867.92, "end": 1875.396, "text": "That being said, if Portland is going to act locally, we appreciate the thoughtful and straightforward approach presented in the amended ordinance before you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-237", "start": 1876.326, "end": 1894.104, "text": "I will note that it stands in stark contrast to a vote that's taking place right now in the city of Seattle, where we expect a policy to advance which will significantly restrict legitimate discounts and promotions and ultimately create unintended cost increases for our shoppers.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-238", "start": 1894.922, "end": 1902.599, "text": "Our members support protections that are clear, that prevent consumers from being charged higher prices based on their personal information.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-239", "start": 1903.272, "end": 1908.129, "text": "I want to be very clear about this point: grocery stores in Portland are not doing this today.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-240", "start": 1908.177, "end": 1908.369, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-241", "start": 1909.107, "end": 1915.912, "text": "Grocery is a highly competitive, low-margin business where prices and promotions change for many legitimate reasons.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-242", "start": 1916.506, "end": 1926.745, "text": "So getting the distinction between individualized price increases and ordinary competitive pricing right matters to both retailers and to consumers.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-243", "start": 1928.125, "end": 1934.737, "text": "At the same time, grocery shoppers increasingly rely on discounts, promotions, and loyalty programs to stretch household budgets.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-244", "start": 1935.587, "end": 1951.844, "text": "So throughout this process, our goal, and one that we very much appreciate has been echoed by UFCW and Councilor Zimmerman, has been to make sure the ordinance presented is aimed at preventing unfair pricing practices while not inadvertently eliminating the savings that your shoppers depend on.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-245", "start": 1952.758, "end": 1958.289, "text": "I will say this is not an ordinance that our industry would have drafted, and there are amendments that we would have preferred to see included.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-246", "start": 1958.995, "end": 1967.49, "text": "However, we also recognize that policymaking done right requires compromise, and we appreciate that many of our concerns have been addressed and are included in the proposal before you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-247", "start": 1968.307, "end": 1976.238, "text": "This includes loyalty protect— protecting programs like loyalty programs, member pricing, manufacturer coupons, promotions, rewards, and rebates.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-248", "start": 1977.183, "end": 1979.442, "text": "I also want to recognize the approach to enforcement.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-249", "start": 1980.179, "end": 1996.846, "text": "Notice of violations, escalating penalties for subsequent violations, and the ability to cure a first alleged violation with discretion to pursue enforcement after that within 45 days creates a fair mechanism that prioritizes compliance while maintaining meaningful consumer protections.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-250", "start": 1996.991, "end": 2002.012, "text": "That's particularly important because this ordinance applies to retailers of all size.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-251", "start": 2003.232, "end": 2010.788, "text": "We believe it's possible to protect consumers from unfair pricing practices while preserving the savings they rely on every day.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-252", "start": 2011.189, "end": 2019.323, "text": "The amended ordinance before you does this and distinguishes between practices that can harm consumers and those that can benefit from them.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-253", "start": 2019.694, "end": 2020.984, "text": "And finds a workable balance.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-254", "start": 2021.065, "end": 2026.55, "text": "And for those reasons, we appreciate the proposal before you and the work that went into getting it here.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-255", "start": 2026.695, "end": 2026.937, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-256", "start": 2027.05, "end": 2031.951, "text": "Ms. Dalton, thank you for spending so much time with us, and we appreciate working with you on that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-257", "start": 2032.031, "end": 2043.51, "text": "So colleagues, I would like to move into questions, but I just want to, you know, go a little less formal than the presentation.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-258", "start": 2043.559, "end": 2045.663, "text": "But really, our thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-259", "start": 2045.823, "end": 2046.353, "text": "Thank you, Councilor Ryan.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-260", "start": 2046.481, "end": 2047.011, "text": "Thank you to our panel.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-261", "start": 2047.108, "end": 2049.371, "text": "And the idea around this, they've summed it up, right?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-262", "start": 2049.419, "end": 2051.33, "text": "It's about preventing future exploitation.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-263", "start": 2052.149, "end": 2055.745, "text": "It's about preventing future unfair price practices.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-264", "start": 2055.954, "end": 2061.46, "text": "It's preventing, I think, a PII market, personally identifiable information market.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-265", "start": 2061.525, "end": 2068.637, "text": "It's about preserving loyalty programs and the consumer market that many of us have come to understand.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-266", "start": 2069.327, "end": 2071.719, "text": "And it's also preserving large and small businesses.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-267", "start": 2071.8, "end": 2075.965, "text": "Small retailers, grocers in our community, which I, I think is important.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-268", "start": 2076.622, "end": 2086.044, "text": "You know, there are going to be opportunities, I think, in this next legislative session at the state level, and I think that that is likely to go bigger and farther in terms of the types of things that people buy.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-269", "start": 2086.957, "end": 2089.328, "text": "Um, and I think that that will be appropriate for them.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-270", "start": 2089.697, "end": 2106.529, "text": "I agree with the sentiment about a patchwork, and I think that the, the ordinance addresses if a patchwork exists that we would be We would be subject to state or federal law if they come about.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-271", "start": 2106.625, "end": 2107.671, "text": "I think that's important.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-272", "start": 2108.42, "end": 2117.648, "text": "It's also an opportunity for us as Portland moving ahead to set an expectation or a standard, potentially to shape and help the state get it right.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-273", "start": 2118.275, "end": 2122.664, "text": "And sometimes we see things at the state move wonderfully, and other times we're left wanting.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-274", "start": 2122.857, "end": 2128.059, "text": "And I think this helps us set a tone and an agenda that can be good for the state.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-275", "start": 2130.106, "end": 2138.1, "text": "I will not move it now, but I do want to flag it now that you will see in the next item Zimmerman 1 as an amendment.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-276", "start": 2138.342, "end": 2145.816, "text": "It adds a single paragraph for a retail price in there and a couple of other administrative word changes.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-277", "start": 2146.011, "end": 2151.402, "text": "That is what I will move to replace the existing ordinance.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-278", "start": 2151.45, "end": 2155.903, "text": "So a new, a new, I think it's H paragraph, but I wanted you to be aware of that before we go into further discussion.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-279", "start": 2155.968, "end": 2156.146, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-280", "start": 2159.519, "end": 2180.515, "text": "But I hope that we're a city who's ready to say that no matter where the technology goes, that when you walk into a grocery store with your cell phone, that the scanner doesn't say, look, it's Eric Zimmerman, let's start setting prices based on him and his specific information because his cell phone walked through the door, and make sure that we continue to set prices based on market and fairness and non-exploitative practices.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-281", "start": 2180.596, "end": 2182.168, "text": "So thank you, Chair, for getting us scheduled.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-282", "start": 2182.328, "end": 2193.11, "text": "I'm really appreciative to everybody's partnership on this, and I know that Councilor Councilor Smith and Councilor Coimbra Lane have both indicated a desire, a potential desire to add their names as co-sponsors in the future to this.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-283", "start": 2193.159, "end": 2193.784, "text": "So thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-284", "start": 2194.988, "end": 2198.984, "text": "Thank you, Councilor, and thank you to both of our guests for being here today as well.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-285", "start": 2199.546, "end": 2201.696, "text": "Colleagues, we'll move into questions.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-286", "start": 2201.793, "end": 2205.307, "text": "I will note that we do not have anybody signed up for public testimony.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-287", "start": 2205.596, "end": 2210.86, "text": "I also want to note that we have 2 amendments posted, one from Councilor Zimmerman and one from Councilor Murillo.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-288", "start": 2211.357, "end": 2221.864, "text": "Councilor Zimmerman, do you prefer Do you prefer to, if your Zimmerman 1 is a replacement, do you prefer to adopt that before we move into discussion or would you like to move into discussion first?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-289", "start": 2223.279, "end": 2224.731, "text": "I think that would be most healthy.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-290", "start": 2224.957, "end": 2227.507, "text": "Yeah, it's a one add to it.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-291", "start": 2227.782, "end": 2228.524, "text": "I think that'd be great.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-292", "start": 2228.589, "end": 2232.172, "text": "And then we can just discuss it as it is if we can do that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-293", "start": 2232.71, "end": 2232.823, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-294", "start": 2232.904, "end": 2240.085, "text": "And Councilor Murillo, does your amendment, I wanna make sure that we're able to debate your amendment if you plan to move it.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-295", "start": 2240.759, "end": 2244.324, "text": "Is it to the Zimmerman 1 version or the underlying version?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-296", "start": 2246.02, "end": 2252.164, "text": "For clarity, the new version just amends one line in your current ordinance?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-297", "start": 2252.422, "end": 2253.339, "text": "I'm sorry, can you say that again?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-298", "start": 2255.925, "end": 2265.34, "text": "It adds F, retail price, and it adjusts a couple of words in the following C.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-299", "start": 2265.729, "end": 2266.053, "text": "Gotcha.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-300", "start": 2266.199, "end": 2266.523, "text": "Oh, okay.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-301", "start": 2266.62, "end": 2268.776, "text": "Sorry, I got confused with what you were saying, Chair.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-302", "start": 2268.825, "end": 2273.748, "text": "My amendment is to the underlying ordinance, Okay.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-303", "start": 2275.095, "end": 2290.264, "text": "I would suggest in order for us to have this debate that we consider Zimmerman 1, and then if, Councilor, we need to have some conforming language to your amendment, if the body decides to move in that direction, we can work through that.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-304", "start": 2290.729, "end": 2291.467, "text": "That sounds fine with me.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-305", "start": 2291.868, "end": 2292.028, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-306", "start": 2293.375, "end": 2298.025, "text": "So Councilor Zimmerman, if you wanna make that motion before we move to Councilor Murillo, who's in the queue, go right ahead.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-307", "start": 2298.187, "end": 2298.381, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-308", "start": 2298.43, "end": 2299.515, "text": "I'd like to move Zimmerman 1.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-309", "start": 2301.541, "end": 2301.849, "text": "Second.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-310", "start": 2304.15, "end": 2312.544, "text": "Okay, colleagues, any debate to Zimmerman 1 so that we can move into debating what our colleague intends to move forward?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-311", "start": 2314.154, "end": 2314.46, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-312", "start": 2314.734, "end": 2318.276, "text": "Can you, can you just restate quickly what the change does?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-313", "start": 2318.405, "end": 2318.614, "text": "Sure.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-314", "start": 2319.323, "end": 2336.737, "text": "So Zimmerman 1 adds a new paragraph F. Retail price means the then-current price of a good offered to a consumer prior to the application of any loyalty or membership of pricing, promotions, limited-time sales, discounts, and fees for premium or additional features.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-315", "start": 2336.785, "end": 2338.585, "text": "So that is in the definitions section.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-316", "start": 2339.597, "end": 2342.987, "text": "So then the cascading paragraphs all have to adjust by one.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-317", "start": 2343.983, "end": 2356.546, "text": "Then in the restrictions and prohibitions paragraph under C, we strike the word available in number 1 and all and add the letter A.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-318", "start": 2356.642, "end": 2356.819, "text": "Second.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-319", "start": 2357.191, "end": 2364.014, "text": "So offer— offering discounts a consumer through a voluntary loyalty membership rewards program or subscription.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-320", "start": 2365.276, "end": 2373.844, "text": "And then the second, number 2 there, offering same changes, offering discounts to a consumer based on etc., etc.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-321", "start": 2375.125, "end": 2391.872, "text": "At the very bottom of the document, in the effective date and interaction with other laws, paragraph B, this provision of the chapter will be superseded and unenforceable upon the effective date of any conflicting law passed by the State of Oregon.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-322", "start": 2392.627, "end": 2394.843, "text": "And we're inserting a period at the end of State of Oregon.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-323", "start": 2395.019, "end": 2401.169, "text": "Currently it has regulating the use of dynamic pricing or surveillance pricing by retail, et cetera, et cetera.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-324", "start": 2401.618, "end": 2406.724, "text": "We're striking that to just not be redundant based on the advice of the City Council or City Attorney.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-325", "start": 2406.789, "end": 2406.997, "text": "Second.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-326", "start": 2408.286, "end": 2410.163, "text": "Those are the— that's the summation of all the changes.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-327", "start": 2411.63, "end": 2411.679, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-328", "start": 2411.728, "end": 2415.229, "text": "Councilor Murillo, did you have a question or comments about Zimmerman 1?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-329", "start": 2416.969, "end": 2418.685, "text": "No, that all sounds fine to me.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-330", "start": 2418.896, "end": 2424.676, "text": "I think I— so I really like that we are trying to ban surveillance pricing here.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-331", "start": 2424.951, "end": 2426.522, "text": "I'm very excited about this as a concept.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-332", "start": 2426.586, "end": 2431.034, "text": "As you know, I'm very into banning AI price fixing overall.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-333", "start": 2432.975, "end": 2437.912, "text": "I think I have— my amendment has some line-by-line changes.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-334", "start": 2438.657, "end": 2451.185, "text": "And so I am a little concerned about if I go through this and try to explain it to people, if it has the updated line change that then changes all the lettering, that might be hard for people to follow.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-335", "start": 2451.622, "end": 2453.371, "text": "But I don't care if other people don't care.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-336", "start": 2453.549, "end": 2455.639, "text": "I'm just saying that that might make it harder to explain.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-337", "start": 2458.07, "end": 2464.376, "text": "So up to you guys, but I'm just noting that it might be more difficult to follow, but I have ways of making it easier as well if we can.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-338", "start": 2464.874, "end": 2466.367, "text": "Let's work through that when we get there.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-339", "start": 2466.72, "end": 2466.897, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-340", "start": 2467.122, "end": 2472.035, "text": "Um, and let Councilor Zimmerman, since he's bringing this, get to the version he wants.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-341", "start": 2472.115, "end": 2476.804, "text": "And if we need to figure out how to work through the other pieces, we can do that.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-342", "start": 2477.093, "end": 2477.671, "text": "Okay, no worries.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-343", "start": 2477.799, "end": 2478.955, "text": "Well, I'm fine with this amendment.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-344", "start": 2479.02, "end": 2479.357, "text": "Sounds good.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-345", "start": 2479.405, "end": 2480.657, "text": "Okay, great.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-346", "start": 2481.589, "end": 2484.431, "text": "Wendy, we have a motion and a second.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-347", "start": 2484.479, "end": 2487.385, "text": "Could you call the roll on Zimmerman 1, please?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-348", "start": 2489.157, "end": 2492.312, "text": "And my apologies, can you tell me who moved that?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-349", "start": 2492.636, "end": 2495.354, "text": "Moved by Zimmerman, seconded by Ryan, I believe.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-350", "start": 2498.212, "end": 2500.299, "text": "Morillo?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-351", "start": 2500.396, "end": 2500.558, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-352", "start": 2500.801, "end": 2501.189, "text": "Zimmerman?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-353", "start": 2501.918, "end": 2501.998, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-354", "start": 2503.131, "end": 2503.568, "text": "Avalos?", "speaker": "Keelan McClymont" }, { "id": "cue-355", "start": 2503.778, "end": 2503.94, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-356", "start": 2504.927, "end": 2505.202, "text": "Ryan?", "speaker": "Keelan McClymont" }, { "id": "cue-357", "start": 2505.494, "end": 2505.542, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-358", "start": 2506.384, "end": 2506.918, "text": "Pirtle-Guiney?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-359", "start": 2508.919, "end": 2508.935, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-360", "start": 2509.097, "end": 2512.622, "text": "Motion to amend the ordinance as shown in Zimmerman 1 passes.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-361", "start": 2513.528, "end": 2513.867, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-362", "start": 2514.013, "end": 2523.623, "text": "And colleagues, I apologize, as we were having that conversation, we did have somebody in the room sign up So why don't we bring up our testifier and then we'll move into our debate?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-363", "start": 2524.201, "end": 2527.882, "text": "Yeah, and I'm going to ask my staff to go print Maria 1 for everybody.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-364", "start": 2528.091, "end": 2528.816, "text": "I have it printed.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-365", "start": 2529.025, "end": 2529.54, "text": "Oh, thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-366", "start": 2530.249, "end": 2532.76, "text": "Never mind.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-367", "start": 2535.239, "end": 2539.277, "text": "Madam Chair, do you want me to explain what my amendment does before the person testifies?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-368", "start": 2540.36, "end": 2540.507, "text": "Sure.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-369", "start": 2540.622, "end": 2544.924, "text": "Why don't we have you walk through the amendment and then before we move into debate, we will hear from our guest testifier.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-370", "start": 2546.904, "end": 2549.241, "text": "Okay, so I'll be brief for this.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-371", "start": 2549.436, "end": 2553.218, "text": "It's quite technical, so I apologize for folks who have to follow along.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-372", "start": 2554.177, "end": 2560.721, "text": "I do have something visually to help make it a little bit easier while we're discussing, but I have an amendment package to introduce.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-373", "start": 2562.756, "end": 2572.595, "text": "It's to— I want to be clear that it protects discounts and loyalty programs, and it requires that these retailers offer discounts transparently to everyone who is similarly situated.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-374", "start": 2573.497, "end": 2582.697, "text": "This package basically just aligns us with what other states have done and addresses issues of surveillance pricing in practice and also adds some enforcement mechanisms.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-375", "start": 2583.13, "end": 2585.278, "text": "So nothing in this limits discounts.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-376", "start": 2585.695, "end": 2588.115, "text": "It limits discount size from your personal data.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-377", "start": 2589.141, "end": 2593.998, "text": "And I can get into that further, but I just wanted folks who are coming to testify to have a little bit of background on what that does.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-378", "start": 2594.831, "end": 2597.011, "text": "And with that, I will pass it off to whoever is coming up.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-379", "start": 2597.059, "end": 2597.332, "text": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-380", "start": 2597.46, "end": 2597.877, "text": "Great.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-381", "start": 2597.957, "end": 2598.63, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-382", "start": 2598.758, "end": 2600.473, "text": "Wendy, could you please call our testifier?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-383", "start": 2601.138, "end": 2603.904, "text": "Rod Pittman, come on up to the dais.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-384", "start": 2609.81, "end": 2610.055, "text": "Welcome.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-385", "start": 2610.153, "end": 2611.479, "text": "Thank you for being here with us today.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-386", "start": 2613.709, "end": 2618.739, "text": "You want to take a seat and introduce yourself for the record so that our staff have that?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-387", "start": 2618.932, "end": 2622.259, "text": "And then you'll have— are we— what is our clock set at for today?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-388", "start": 2622.324, "end": 2623.185, "text": "3 minutes, Wendy?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-389", "start": 2623.526, "end": 2628.852, "text": "It's 3 minutes, and you'll see it as a very small number on the screen in front of you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-390", "start": 2630.533, "end": 2634.714, "text": "Right down there in front of you, in the middle of the circle.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-391", "start": 2635.662, "end": 2636.161, "text": "Oh yeah, yeah.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-392", "start": 2636.305, "end": 2636.579, "text": "Perfect.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-393", "start": 2636.659, "end": 2638.138, "text": "So you'll have 3 minutes to go ahead.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-394", "start": 2639.026, "end": 2641.662, "text": "I'm gonna do under 60.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-395", "start": 2643.446, "end": 2659.651, "text": "I'm Rod Pittman, and I live in the Johns Landing area, but I've lived all over Portland, you know, Downtown, Sellwood, all over Portland.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-396", "start": 2660.199, "end": 2668.825, "text": "And I'm just— I just wanted to come and say how grateful that we are that y'all are addressing all of this stuff.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-397", "start": 2669.693, "end": 2698.035, "text": "And because if we can get a handle in on this, then we'll be able to do a much better job of getting the potholes and fixed in the police department, or what they need, and make sure that there's no hanky-panky involved being price fixing and things like that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-398", "start": 2699.55, "end": 2700.804, "text": "Thank you much for your time.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-399", "start": 2701.163, "end": 2701.749, "text": "Have a great day.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-400", "start": 2702.68, "end": 2704.99, "text": "Thank you so much for being here and for your testimony.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-401", "start": 2705.055, "end": 2706.267, "text": "We appreciate hearing from you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-402", "start": 2709.196, "end": 2710.248, "text": "That concludes testimony.", "speaker": "Keelan McClymont" }, { "id": "cue-403", "start": 2711.381, "end": 2713.937, "text": "Okay, colleagues, we will now move into discussion.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-404", "start": 2715.21, "end": 2720.811, "text": "We are at discussion of the underlying, or the now amended, I should say, the now amended ordinance.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-405", "start": 2722.19, "end": 2722.951, "text": "Councilor Morillo.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-406", "start": 2724.732, "end": 2727.161, "text": "Is now the right time to introduce my amendment?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-407", "start": 2727.468, "end": 2727.938, "text": "Go right ahead.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-408", "start": 2728.359, "end": 2729.557, "text": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-409", "start": 2731.552, "end": 2736.005, "text": "For folks who are following along online, the amendment was posted online now, so I think you should be able to see that.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-410", "start": 2736.116, "end": 2737.271, "text": "I'm looking to confirm.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-411", "start": 2737.672, "end": 2739.228, "text": "Okay, it looks like it is posted online.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-412", "start": 2740.062, "end": 2749.527, "text": "But for the sake of discussion for our committee, I know that it's quite long and technical, so I have an option to make it a little bit easier to follow my logic.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-413", "start": 2749.671, "end": 2755.511, "text": "And so I'll share my screen quickly and then go through this quickly and get into discussion.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-414", "start": 2755.623, "end": 2759.168, "text": "We also have an attorney here who helped us with our amendments.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-415", "start": 2759.297, "end": 2762.537, "text": "They reviewed them all today, or they reviewed them for a few days.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-416", "start": 2762.762, "end": 2763.973, "text": "But got final review today.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-417", "start": 2764.07, "end": 2768.508, "text": "So they're in good standing and just wanted to share that with folks before I get started.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-418", "start": 2769.46, "end": 2772.961, "text": "Councilor, just to clarify, they were reviewed by the City Attorney's Office?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-419", "start": 2773.332, "end": 2773.849, "text": "Correct, yes.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-420", "start": 2775.429, "end": 2775.607, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-421", "start": 2780.538, "end": 2785.135, "text": "And I hope everyone knows that this is my version of being extremely excited about a policy.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-422", "start": 2785.248, "end": 2789.651, "text": "So because I really hate price fixing and I really hate AI.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-423", "start": 2791.786, "end": 2794.666, "text": "I'm trying to see if I can share this slideshow.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-424", "start": 2794.859, "end": 2807.876, "text": "Looks like it is in— is anyone here for tech support?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-425", "start": 2807.957, "end": 2809.101, "text": "Can you help me share this slideshow?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-426", "start": 2809.423, "end": 2809.81, "text": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-427", "start": 2810.471, "end": 2812.244, "text": "Yes.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-428", "start": 2817.338, "end": 2838.024, "text": "Oh, thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-429", "start": 2838.235, "end": 2839.08, "text": "I can share this board then.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-430", "start": 2839.518, "end": 2839.859, "text": "Perfect.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-431", "start": 2839.908, "end": 2840.46, "text": "Thank you so much.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-432", "start": 2841.289, "end": 2859.471, "text": "Um, okay, I'll go, I'll go through this quickly because I want to make sure we have time to actually discuss it and go through So surveillance pricing, as we've discussed, it targets different prices at individual consumers, and they do that by using people's private information, and that is called individualized or first-degree price discrimination.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-433", "start": 2860.483, "end": 2869.809, "text": "So the things that we know that they are collecting on us are what we buy, your debt, where you live, what phone you use, all of those types of things.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-434", "start": 2869.873, "end": 2875.443, "text": "And we know that, for example, Kroger has profiles that run to 62 pages per household, so a lot of data on people.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-435", "start": 2875.508, "end": 2889.892, "text": "And what they can infer from that data So they can literally target even your emotional well-being to figure out when to push a product to you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-436", "start": 2890.458, "end": 2896.71, "text": "And they can set your price or your discount or your fee to what the model says you as a consumer are going to tolerate.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-437", "start": 2897.32, "end": 2903.184, "text": "So if you can afford it, or if you're willing to pay more for an item, they have all of that data collected on you to actually push that forward.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-438", "start": 2903.249, "end": 2903.428, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-439", "start": 2904.357, "end": 2913.975, "text": "A lot of these companies consume as many as 2,000 different data points on customers to aggregate this and give you your own individual specific price.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-440", "start": 2916.1, "end": 2918.755, "text": "So are discounts surveillance pricing?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-441", "start": 2919.028, "end": 2922.762, "text": "I think coupons is a big question that we have in this policy that I want to address.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-442", "start": 2923.82, "end": 2926.731, "text": "Third-degree price discrimination has always been allowed.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-443", "start": 2927.993, "end": 2930.516, "text": "It's not surveillance pricing even if personal information is involved.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-444", "start": 2930.565, "end": 2931.034, "text": "I think that's a good point.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-445", "start": 2931.488, "end": 2937.46, "text": "So we've always had things like senior, student, or veteran discounts that are in the form of coupons.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-446", "start": 2937.893, "end": 2940.767, "text": "And those are permissible because they are publicly advertised.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-447", "start": 2940.847, "end": 2942.356, "text": "So everyone has access to this.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-448", "start": 2943.271, "end": 2951.345, "text": "Broad consumer segments can access this without having their individual data scrubbed and added into a dataset to be given to them.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-449", "start": 2951.923, "end": 2958.633, "text": "So the reason that these types of discounts and coupons work is because there is transparency to who they are given to and why.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-450", "start": 2959.229, "end": 2965.865, "text": "And they're equally applied, which is very different from what we see with these retailers who are aggregating people's data.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-451", "start": 2967.178, "end": 2974.127, "text": "So the question is that personal data should decide whether you qualify for a public offer, but not how much you individually get.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-452", "start": 2976.078, "end": 2976.934, "text": "This is just a slide.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-453", "start": 2976.982, "end": 2989.999, "text": "I won't go through each individual example, but it shows the different offerings that were given to different people based on their own data, experiences, background, et cetera, and the prices that they're willing to tolerate, and I think that's important for us to take a look at.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-454", "start": 2992.01, "end": 3000.541, "text": "So surveillance discounting is another form of first-degree price discrimination where retailers engage in surveillance pricing, but it's presented as a discount.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-455", "start": 3000.622, "end": 3009.233, "text": "So people tend to not fight it as much because they don't realize that technically someone else could be getting a better discount or a worse discount based on who they are and what data the company has on them.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-456", "start": 3010.236, "end": 3013.407, "text": "And that's distributed on an individual basis with their personal data.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-457", "start": 3015.009, "end": 3021.919, "text": "So the question for me in this policy is, do we regulate individual— do we regulate individualized surveillance discounts?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-458", "start": 3022.385, "end": 3029.176, "text": "And I think my opinion is that yes, we do have to regulate that as well because it is based on personal data.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-459", "start": 3029.562, "end": 3049.255, "text": "So whenever individual in a market is offered a different discount based on their willingness and ability to pay, that means that that discount— retailers can show any price as the base that's a form of price discrimination that I want to make sure is accounted for here.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-460", "start": 3050.7, "end": 3057.222, "text": "So the benefits of regulating surveillance discounting include protecting prices that are predictable, transparent, and fair.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-461", "start": 3060.184, "end": 3066.045, "text": "Here is another example of what different— what the same shoppers are getting for the same product.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-462", "start": 3066.093, "end": 3078.254, "text": "I think it's important to note that So under the Zimmerman 1 option, an app that shows you something for $6.49 for an item, another shopper might see for $5.99.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-463", "start": 3078.931, "end": 3082.684, "text": "Under Councilor Zimmerman's ordinance, it's banned but hard to catch.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-464", "start": 3082.877, "end": 3085.633, "text": "There's no records of duty, no guarantee of enforcement.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-465", "start": 3086.326, "end": 3088.908, "text": "With my amendments, it's banned and enforceable.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-466", "start": 3089.408, "end": 3092.005, "text": "A retail price cannot be based on personal data.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-467", "start": 3092.07, "end": 3092.199, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-468", "start": 3093.855, "end": 3098.475, "text": "Under the original ordinance, if there's another example, you and your neighbors see different prices.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-469", "start": 3099.132, "end": 3101.65, "text": "When caught, the company calls it pricing test.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-470", "start": 3102.982, "end": 3105.82, "text": "Under the current ordinance, it's not very clearly banned.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-471", "start": 3106.029, "end": 3110.889, "text": "Only a price based on your personal data is covered, and the company will say a pricing test is not.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-472", "start": 3111.723, "end": 3114.193, "text": "Under my amendments, it is banned.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-473", "start": 3114.706, "end": 3120.945, "text": "There are different prices for different shoppers, different prices for different shoppers, whether the reason is your data or a coin flip.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-474", "start": 3121.138, "end": 3122.133, "text": "Is all banned.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-475", "start": 3123.289, "end": 3125.746, "text": "Under the third example, the shelf price is $4.99.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-476", "start": 3126.18, "end": 3129.005, "text": "The app shows you $5.99 with a dollar off.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-477", "start": 3129.856, "end": 3133.132, "text": "You pay $4.99 with others paying $4.49.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-478", "start": 3134.111, "end": 3135.974, "text": "Under the current ordinance, that's exempt.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-479", "start": 3136.134, "end": 3139.554, "text": "Individual consumers can be offered different discounts or different prices.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-480", "start": 3140.052, "end": 3142.332, "text": "Under my amendments, that is also banned.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-481", "start": 3143.135, "end": 3146.474, "text": "So surveillance discounting is not permitted for the reasons that we went over earlier.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-482", "start": 3146.523, "end": 3146.699, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-483", "start": 3147.197, "end": 3154.467, "text": "And my last example, you get 50 cents off and your neighbor gets a dollar off the same item because a model says that you'll pay more.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-484", "start": 3155.799, "end": 3163.118, "text": "The current ordinance exempts it by text discounts to a consumer through a voluntary loyalty program.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-485", "start": 3164.225, "end": 3175.877, "text": "Under mine, that's banned as well because we have seen that certain states are viewing this voluntary data sharing as a loophole that retailers are able to use to continue to collect people's data.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-486", "start": 3175.925, "end": 3176.053, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-487", "start": 3178.005, "end": 3192.935, "text": "This gives into more examples of what our amendments do, but basically I am just going through line by line and strengthening some of the language and making sure that there aren't loopholes that retailers can use to continue collecting people's data.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-488", "start": 3195.348, "end": 3201.709, "text": "So I will let folks just read through that on their own time because I want to make sure we're not taking up too much time here.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-489", "start": 3204.056, "end": 3207.107, "text": "So I want to talk about what stays the same very quickly in this amendment list.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-490", "start": 3207.235, "end": 3213.114, "text": "The amendments democratize and protect discounts while offering protections to consumers from surveillance discounts.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-491", "start": 3213.499, "end": 3218.606, "text": "So people who are seniors, students, teachers, veterans, and youth can still get discounts.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-492", "start": 3219.602, "end": 3223.762, "text": "Coupons, sales, price matching, and rebates— everyone can still get those.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-493", "start": 3224.741, "end": 3230.772, "text": "Loyalty and rewards programs are still permissible as long as all members are treated equally.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-494", "start": 3232.68, "end": 3236.222, "text": "Cheaper delivery when you live closer to the store is still available.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-495", "start": 3236.738, "end": 3240.876, "text": "Pricing error corrections and credits when an order goes wrong, still available.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-496", "start": 3241.553, "end": 3246.831, "text": "And any sales seasonal prices and prices that rise or fall for everyone are also still permissible.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-497", "start": 3249.218, "end": 3254.03, "text": "And if folks want a list of our research that we did, we also spoke with a lot of consumer justice thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-498", "start": 3254.03, "end": 3257.39, "text": "We've also been working with a number of civil rights and social justice organizations to get some of their feedback about what they're seeing.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-499", "start": 3258.049, "end": 3259.8, "text": "So you can go through some of that if you're interested.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-500", "start": 3260.77, "end": 3266.42, "text": "I know that Seattle, in their policy, they've been working with over 40 organizations to have these discussions.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-501", "start": 3267.01, "end": 3272.03, "text": "Antitrust law is very complicated, as we recall from the AI price fixing ban.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-502", "start": 3272.63, "end": 3278.83, "text": "And so I hope you'll bear with me as we go through all of this, but I'm very excited about this and looking forward to collaborating on it.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-503", "start": 3278.83, "end": 3279.44, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-504", "start": 3282.16, "end": 3282.882, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-505", "start": 3282.962, "end": 3289.366, "text": "Is that presentation available to be posted so that folks can look at it?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-506", "start": 3289.462, "end": 3295.321, "text": "And is it clear that it comes from your office so that anybody pulling it up online knows that?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-507", "start": 3296.669, "end": 3297.969, "text": "It will be available to be posted.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-508", "start": 3298.049, "end": 3305.159, "text": "They're going to post it right after this committee, and we can make sure that it has our office's information in case anyone has further questions.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-509", "start": 3305.416, "end": 3307.006, "text": "Great, thank you very much.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-510", "start": 3307.423, "end": 3308.419, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-511", "start": 3308.627, "end": 3311.197, "text": "Um, are you formally moving the amendment?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-512", "start": 3312.561, "end": 3315.516, "text": "Um, yes, I would like to move this amendment package forward.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-513", "start": 3315.949, "end": 3316.864, "text": "We can call it Morillo 1.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-514", "start": 3317.459, "end": 3317.876, "text": "Second.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-515", "start": 3318.133, "end": 3323.865, "text": "Okay, uh, with a motion and a second, we're now in discussion to the amendment.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-516", "start": 3323.978, "end": 3326.065, "text": "Is there any discussion to the amendment?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-517", "start": 3332.487, "end": 3332.728, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-518", "start": 3333.273, "end": 3333.386, "text": "Yeah.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-519", "start": 3333.787, "end": 3335.103, "text": "I'll jump in with a question.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-520", "start": 3335.36, "end": 3338.362, "text": "Um, this is a question actually, Councilor Zimmerman, for you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-521", "start": 3338.586, "end": 3359.051, "text": "One of the things that Councilor Murillo showed in those examples that we ran through there were situations where a consumer could pay a higher price than the advertised price or the listed price because there was a price listed or advertised and then a higher price sent to you on an app with a discount that still put it higher.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-522", "start": 3359.694, "end": 3382.237, "text": "Does your underlying— and I, I'm sorry, I just wasn't able to find it going through quickly, so I'm hoping you can direct me more quickly than I can find it myself— does your underlying specify that discounts, um, that, that an advertised price must be the same, or that discounts must be taken from an advertised price?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-523", "start": 3382.992, "end": 3389.741, "text": "I'm wondering if those scenarios are actually Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-524", "start": 3390.641, "end": 3397.261, "text": "Staff, weigh in here if you have it, but I think that where that question is most perfectly addressed is probably in the new F that we just adopted.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-525", "start": 3397.357, "end": 3409.794, "text": "Retail price means the then-current price of a good offered to a consumer prior to the application of a loyalty or membership pricing, promotions, limited-time sales, discounts, and fees for premium or additional features.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-526", "start": 3410.453, "end": 3410.822, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-527", "start": 3411.916, "end": 3412.405, "text": "Okay, so with—.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-528", "start": 3412.405, "end": 3413.171, "text": "I think that's what addresses it.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-529", "start": 3413.709, "end": 3417.441, "text": "F, thank you, because I thought I had seen something here and couldn't find it.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-530", "start": 3422.928, "end": 3427.164, "text": "Um, okay, offered to a consumer.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-531", "start": 3429.972, "end": 3436.035, "text": "So you don't talk about advertised prices at all, but we do with F start to get at those concerns, it looks like.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-532", "start": 3438.006, "end": 3438.391, "text": "If I may.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-533", "start": 3439.274, "end": 3441.426, "text": "Luke Zach with Councilor Zimmerman, for the record.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-534", "start": 3442.726, "end": 3451.571, "text": "The question that you had, we had earlier versions that talked about advertised pricing and stuff along the lines with that.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-535", "start": 3451.652, "end": 3466.244, "text": "But what we wanted to get at here with including the definition for the retail price, and it differs from Councilor Murillo's amendment in that our definition of retail price talks about it before there's any sort of applied discounts, any promotional fees, anything like that.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-536", "start": 3466.357, "end": 3466.421, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-537", "start": 3468.011, "end": 3478.431, "text": "And we found that was important, and we heard feedback that it was important to set a starting point for the conversation so there isn't a sort of logical loop of trying to figure out what the retail price is.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-538", "start": 3479.009, "end": 3488.017, "text": "And that is important, especially around the dynamic pricing restriction that we talk about, making sure that that is the price that can only increase once a calendar day.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-539", "start": 3488.643, "end": 3488.884, "text": "Got it.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-540", "start": 3489.061, "end": 3489.639, "text": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-541", "start": 3489.687, "end": 3492.015, "text": "That's really helpful understanding how it ties into that piece.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-542", "start": 3493.262, "end": 3494.49, "text": "Councilor Zimmerman, go right ahead.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-543", "start": 3496.7, "end": 3509.832, "text": "Chair, I was wondering, since we had 2 of our invited expert testimony, I, I'm digesting this in real time as much as you all are, um, and I'm, I'm interested if you would entertain them coming back to the dais.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-544", "start": 3510.608, "end": 3513.934, "text": "I'd like to understand their take on both of these, or from both of them.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-545", "start": 3514.593, "end": 3516.794, "text": "I would be happy to have them come back up.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-546", "start": 3517.003, "end": 3519.14, "text": "Um, Mr. Salvaggio, Ms.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-547", "start": 3519.188, "end": 3526.452, "text": "Dalton, if either of you have can we also have Attorney Matt Gander come up?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-548", "start": 3527.692, "end": 3531.233, "text": "Let's hear from these 2 individuals, and then I'm happy to have the attorney come up as well.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-549", "start": 3533.72, "end": 3536.246, "text": "Yeah, I think this request was to hear from the speakers.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-550", "start": 3537.077, "end": 3539.049, "text": "Happy to make sure we can hear from the attorney next.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-551", "start": 3542.98, "end": 3547.612, "text": "I'm guessing if we're all just seeing this that you are as well, but if you have any initial thoughts on the document, we can go through it.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-552", "start": 3548.913, "end": 3555.196, "text": "How this would work on the ground from either of your perspectives, that would be great.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-553", "start": 3556.08, "end": 3558.562, "text": "Mr. Salvaggio, do you wanna start since you spoke first prior?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-554", "start": 3559.195, "end": 3559.536, "text": "Sure.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-555", "start": 3560.412, "end": 3562.408, "text": "Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the committee.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-556", "start": 3563.236, "end": 3568.437, "text": "Again, for the record, Michael Salvaggio representing United Food and Commercial Workers Local 555.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-557", "start": 3569.619, "end": 3577.106, "text": "I apologize that I haven't had a significant amount of time To review the Morillo 1 amendments.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-558", "start": 3578.867, "end": 3591.835, "text": "But I do want to say firstly that I appreciate Councilor Morillo's very robust analysis.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-559", "start": 3595.999, "end": 3642.564, "text": "I'm— I would say that I'm a little concerned in that I— there's a lot to unpack here because there's so much more being added, and I wouldn't want to get into a situation in which we had missed a particularly relevant cross-reference effect, such as there's a reference to, I think in here somewhere, in the definitions where it says any business or agent that sells consumer goods to consumers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-560", "start": 3642.79, "end": 3652.843, "text": "And I get exactly what the point of that is, in that we don't want a business to say, well, that was really our third-party agent that did that, so our hands are clean.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-561", "start": 3652.959, "end": 3653.042, "text": "Right.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-562", "start": 3653.857, "end": 3667.102, "text": "Having said that, it brings up the question for me, how many other areas in the business code don't have or agent after them and yet are just generally accepted to apply to agents?", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-563", "start": 3667.888, "end": 3679.803, "text": "And I would not want to list that here and then create an implication that part of the business code that did not include that did not include such third-party agents.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-564", "start": 3681.301, "end": 3690.895, "text": "That's an example of the type of cross-reference that I would need more time to really dig into before having a solid analysis.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-565", "start": 3692, "end": 3714.395, "text": "I will say generally with regard to private right of action, although there are areas where my colleague in the grocery industry and I agree and there are areas where we disagree, We will be having a vibrant back and forth at the state level on private right of action, I'm sure.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-566", "start": 3716.178, "end": 3727.589, "text": "And I think that that is where we would rather have it as opposed to creating individualized rights of action for a number of cities and counties.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-567", "start": 3731.357, "end": 3734.405, "text": "So again, There's a lot to unpack here.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-568", "start": 3735.096, "end": 3757.209, "text": "I would need to think very carefully about some of the unintended effects of this, but also the subsection C exemptions in 728.030, I think, involve a lot of unpacking.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-569", "start": 3757.403, "end": 3766.478, "text": "For example, we were talking about can discounts be given to people based on certain factors that are more or less than other people?", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-570", "start": 3767.296, "end": 3778.412, "text": "And initially in subsection C, it says that the restrictions applied at discounts so long as dot, dot, dot, they're of equal value to all who qualify.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-571", "start": 3778.781, "end": 3783.833, "text": "But then in sub-sub-2, we see where tiered discount programs exist.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-572", "start": 3784.475, "end": 3793.197, "text": "And it says that you can give different tiers of discounts based on prior purchase history.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-573", "start": 3794.07, "end": 3797.233, "text": "I just frankly don't know how to parse that without being an attorney at this point.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-574", "start": 3798.54, "end": 3806.855, "text": "And so I think we would wanna take this back and subject it to some more scrutiny before rendering a final opinion on it.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-575", "start": 3806.919, "end": 3810.972, "text": "But I would rather have the private right of action discussion in Salem.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-576", "start": 3813.857, "end": 3814.322, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-577", "start": 3814.595, "end": 3815.19, "text": "Ms. Dalton.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-578", "start": 3815.543, "end": 3820.008, "text": "Chair Pearl Guiney and members of committee, Amanda Dalton on behalf of the Northwest Grocery Retailer Association.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-579", "start": 3820.12, "end": 3826.673, "text": "Unfortunately, we're also seeing this in a bit of real time— actually, not in a bit, we really are seeing this in real time.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-580", "start": 3826.93, "end": 3833.74, "text": "Um, and but I can share a couple of things, primarily because it looks very similar to the language that City of Seattle is considering right at this moment.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-581", "start": 3834.398, "end": 3838.815, "text": "And so I will echo my concerns that I have been echoing to that council for the last 3 months.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-582", "start": 3839.617, "end": 3855.102, "text": "Specifically, the most concerning language in the proposed amendment before you is the inclusion of, um, a new C in 0.030 and this requirement that discounts are provided of equal value to all who qualify.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-583", "start": 3855.984, "end": 3858.468, "text": "That's just not how loyalty programs and discounts work.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-584", "start": 3859.254, "end": 3861.771, "text": "If you provide equally to all, you're lowering prices for all.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-585", "start": 3861.835, "end": 3862.652, "text": "That's not a discount.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-586", "start": 3862.78, "end": 3863.871, "text": "That's not a loyalty program.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-587", "start": 3863.999, "end": 3865.169, "text": "That's not a membership program.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-588", "start": 3865.746, "end": 3869.625, "text": "As we have said to that council, that is way— the way that these grocers stay in business.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-589", "start": 3869.689, "end": 3870.555, "text": "They compete against each other.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-590", "start": 3870.603, "end": 3870.715, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-591", "start": 3871.757, "end": 3875.188, "text": "That's how these large union stores compete against non-union stores.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-592", "start": 3876.598, "end": 3893.222, "text": "So I will say specifically that language alone and the changes presented in this red line compared to the carefully crafted exceptions in Zimmerman 1 give us immediate significant concern that I imagine I could get much more for you once it's kind of thrown through the attorneys' reviews.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-593", "start": 3893.35, "end": 3915.05, "text": "I can also flag for you, as you continue to go further on the enforcement and penalties, there's a massive new recordkeeping burden you're putting on small and 3 years attached to every single discount and coupon our stores provide is a massive recordkeeping undertaking, especially with a new private right of action with a $1 million cap.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-594", "start": 3915.146, "end": 3917.52, "text": "It's exactly what we're looking at at the City of Seattle.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-595", "start": 3918.034, "end": 3923.248, "text": "You put a million-dollar cap on every single product in our stores without giving us the opportunity to cure.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-596", "start": 3923.89, "end": 3926.377, "text": "And again, I want you to keep in mind, this is language you're looking at.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-597", "start": 3926.473, "end": 3927.131, "text": "Seattle—.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-598", "start": 3927.564, "end": 3928.816, "text": "City of Seattle is looking at the same.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-599", "start": 3929.441, "end": 3931.318, "text": "Seattle's exempted small grocers under 20 stores.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-600", "start": 3931.367, "end": 3931.639, "text": "That's not true.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-601", "start": 3932.059, "end": 3935.305, "text": "You have no similar exception in what you're looking at right now.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-602", "start": 3935.386, "end": 3940.842, "text": "So you are looking at a large private right of action on every single retailer, regardless of size.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-603", "start": 3942.545, "end": 3945.486, "text": "And given that, you scroll down to the bottom, private right of action.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-604", "start": 3945.678, "end": 3954.419, "text": "I read that very quickly as private rights of action are allowed to be pursued even if the city found no violation to have occurred in sub 1.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-605", "start": 3955.094, "end": 3959.078, "text": "And then I see a different statutory minimum for a violation the city did find.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-606", "start": 3959.255, "end": 3959.496, "text": "So—.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-607", "start": 3959.5, "end": 3969.021, "text": "So that essentially is a double enforcement, allowing a private right of action, a civil lawsuit to be pursued against the grocer separate from a city finding.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-608", "start": 3969.069, "end": 3971.65, "text": "And so I think that that's by far punitive.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-609", "start": 3971.698, "end": 3990.806, "text": "And then lastly, and probably most significantly, you heard a lot from us about this earlier, it completely stripes out the preemption and makes this standalone and then run counter to anything that's then adopted at the statewide, putting your Portland area grocers at a significant disadvantage in complying with both at the same time.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-610", "start": 3990.935, "end": 3994.498, "text": "And so we would ask you not to consider and adopt this amendment today.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-611", "start": 3995.526, "end": 3996.265, "text": "Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-612", "start": 3996.795, "end": 4001.306, "text": "Um, I'm gonna listen to the rest of the questions, but I appreciate— that's it for my questions right now.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-613", "start": 4001.387, "end": 4001.692, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-614", "start": 4002.093, "end": 4006.83, "text": "Chair, since this was about my amendments, can I respond to any of that or no?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-615", "start": 4007.087, "end": 4011.502, "text": "And also, I do want to clarify that, um, committee is the place to bring amendments.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-616", "start": 4011.663, "end": 4016.4, "text": "So, um, I was gonna say that Councilor Ryan was in the queue next.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-617", "start": 4017.283, "end": 4019.61, "text": "I wanted to hear those that were in support.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-618", "start": 4019.915, "end": 4021.761, "text": "Okay, so Councilor Morillo, you are—.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-619", "start": 4021.761, "end": 4022.499, "text": "I just saw this.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-620", "start": 4023.622, "end": 4030.363, "text": "You are next in the queue, so why don't we turn it to you, and you are welcome to ask any additional questions of our guests as well.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-621", "start": 4031.326, "end": 4033.461, "text": "Okay, so there was a lot said.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-622", "start": 4033.654, "end": 4049.54, "text": "First of all, Mr. Salvaggio, really appreciate you guys working on this, and I think you're right, there is a lot to unpack because antitrust law is horrifically complicated, and I feel like me and my team became thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-623", "start": 4049.925, "end": 4052.956, "text": "I'm very interested in this area of policy.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-624", "start": 4054.03, "end": 4061.215, "text": "Regarding Councilor Pirtle-Guiney's question on reference price and the Zimmerman 1 definition, it's per person.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-625", "start": 4061.712, "end": 4064.149, "text": "So the quote is offered to a consumer.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-626", "start": 4064.679, "end": 4069.201, "text": "Your retail price and your neighbors can differ, so there's nothing to compare yours to.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-627", "start": 4069.65, "end": 4071.959, "text": "Every real baseline is defined against the public.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-628", "start": 4072.73, "end": 4077.513, "text": "So in other spaces, it's advertised to the public on a regular basis.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-629", "start": 4077.626, "end": 4080.547, "text": "New York says openly and actively offered to the public.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-630", "start": 4080.884, "end": 4083.742, "text": "New Jersey's version says regular course of business.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-631", "start": 4084.271, "end": 4086.037, "text": "It's the number before the discount.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-632", "start": 4087.257, "end": 4091.495, "text": "So what we have here is that it's secret.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-633", "start": 4092.362, "end": 4098.173, "text": "Nothing in the current underlying ordinance requires the retail price to be posted, disclosed, or recorded.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-634", "start": 4098.638, "end": 4100.276, "text": "It exists only in the company's system.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-635", "start": 4100.388, "end": 4128.101, "text": "So the baseline is whatever the retailer says I would also say that as far as the concern about small retailers, small and independent retailers don't have the complex data mining operations that companies like Kroger use to do individualized discounting and are at a substantial disadvantage to larger competitors that use data to set their prices based on what they know about you and your preferences as a consumer.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-636", "start": 4128.517, "end": 4142.661, "text": "So the result of that is that small retailers either lose out or they feel compelled to sell through online platforms and third-party pricing services that price discriminate, denying their ability to independently price goods and services.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-637", "start": 4143.719, "end": 4149.155, "text": "So the reason we are doing this is it does actually protect small retailers.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-638", "start": 4149.267, "end": 4150.213, "text": "It's much better for them.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-639", "start": 4150.855, "end": 4161.33, "text": "And we are pushing for the private right of action because Exhibit A, barred any private right of action, the city will not see most of this.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-640", "start": 4161.523, "end": 4163.851, "text": "The overcharged shopper is the one with the receipt.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-641", "start": 4164.368, "end": 4171.515, "text": "Seattle's mayor's office to its council said this is a violation that will have different levels of visibility.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-642", "start": 4171.628, "end": 4177.174, "text": "So a private right of action as an accountability mechanism is an important part of this implementation process.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-643", "start": 4181.246, "end": 4181.379, "text": "I—.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-644", "start": 4181.66, "end": 4186.178, "text": "And I'm really happy to engage more with folks on Discounting and loyalty terms.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-645", "start": 4186.258, "end": 4189.839, "text": "But to start, every comparator says the same thing.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-646", "start": 4190.497, "end": 4193.917, "text": "New York says, quote, offered uniformly to any consumer.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-647", "start": 4194.704, "end": 4199.312, "text": "New Jersey offered to— based upon those conditions, etc.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-648", "start": 4199.409, "end": 4201.865, "text": "There's a lot of different states that are passing policies around this.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-649", "start": 4202.01, "end": 4207.196, "text": "So what I'm offering is actually more in line with what's being done in other places as well.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-650", "start": 4207.838, "end": 4208.192, "text": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-651", "start": 4208.882, "end": 4209.685, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-652", "start": 4212.224, "end": 4213.257, "text": "Sorry, was that a question?", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-653", "start": 4213.798, "end": 4214.978, "text": "I'm not sure.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-654", "start": 4217.238, "end": 4220.162, "text": "I don't— I think that was a statement, not a question.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-655", "start": 4220.534, "end": 4222.974, "text": "Councilor, did you want a— was that a question?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-656", "start": 4223.022, "end": 4224.315, "text": "Did you want a response from our guests?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-657", "start": 4225.35, "end": 4228.799, "text": "Um, no, no, I just— appreciation for you being here.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-658", "start": 4229.089, "end": 4233.542, "text": "And yeah, I think that this is a lot to dig into, and I'm glad that we have committees to do that when—.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-659", "start": 4233.542, "end": 4235.885, "text": "Okay, Councilor Ryan.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-660", "start": 4236.836, "end": 4239.869, "text": "Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Councilor Zimmerman, for bringing overarching.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-661", "start": 4240.45, "end": 4247.39, "text": "I have been following this, and what I really appreciated is how you're working with industry so that this could actually be implemented.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-662", "start": 4248.634, "end": 4250.352, "text": "I like that it's proactive for consumers.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-663", "start": 4251.972, "end": 4253.421, "text": "And so anyway, I was all there.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-664", "start": 4255.716, "end": 4264.102, "text": "I did have a pause like others that just saw this in this meeting, and that that I add caution.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-665", "start": 4264.36, "end": 4272.796, "text": "And so I appreciate that those who are closest to the impact are sharing their point of view on the item.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-666", "start": 4273.56, "end": 4282.025, "text": "So I heard enough to know that I won't be supporting the amendment today, but I'm excited to support the overarching— the amendment that we're discussing now.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-667", "start": 4282.268, "end": 4282.511, "text": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-668", "start": 4285.732, "end": 4286.493, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-669", "start": 4288.161, "end": 4289.851, "text": "Councilor Morillo, I'm going to go to Councilor Avalos.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-670", "start": 4289.949, "end": 4290.664, "text": "She hasn't spoken yet.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-671", "start": 4290.778, "end": 4291.883, "text": "Go right ahead, Councilor Avalos.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-672", "start": 4294.77, "end": 4295.53, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-673", "start": 4297.569, "end": 4302.473, "text": "Okay, trying to parse out what my questions are.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-674", "start": 4309.275, "end": 4319.945, "text": "Um, I think what I'm wanting to understand is I think where I'm getting myself confused, I'm like trying to react to the amendment, but then some of my question might be to the underlying.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-675", "start": 4320.01, "end": 4321.277, "text": "So I'm just going to ask and see where it lands.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-676", "start": 4323.467, "end": 4324.163, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-677", "start": 4324.26, "end": 4340.667, "text": "Um, so as it relates to surveillance versus dynamic pricing, um, I guess I just want to better understand, uh, like what we're regulating, right?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-678", "start": 4340.717, "end": 4348.393, "text": "So we've got It seems like there's 2 separate things, surveillance pricing and, and, um, dynamic pricing, right?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-679", "start": 4348.813, "end": 4355.854, "text": "And so for the dynamic side, a retailer can change a price because of supply and demand, inventory, etc.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-680", "start": 4356.563, "end": 4364.125, "text": "Um, so, and every customer is seeing the same price under dynamic pricing.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-681", "start": 4365.032, "end": 4375.208, "text": "Um, so what is the consumer protection, I guess, rationale for the city limiting how frequently that I'm just trying to understand the in-a-day part and what that means.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-682", "start": 4375.961, "end": 4376.811, "text": "That is a great question.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-683", "start": 4377.708, "end": 4381.363, "text": "So I'm also— I'm going to answer it first, and then if staff, if I miss anything, please weigh in.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-684", "start": 4381.427, "end": 4391.109, "text": "So the great question, because we all understand that I'm using the grocery store idea that something might have to move, right?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-685", "start": 4391.253, "end": 4392.776, "text": "You got a product, it's time to move it.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-686", "start": 4392.952, "end": 4396.527, "text": "You know, you've got like tomatoes need to be moved.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-687", "start": 4396.719, "end": 4397.921, "text": "Moving prices makes sense.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-688", "start": 4398.467, "end": 4404.84, "text": "Or that you're coming up on, you know, at the end of the day, you like to discount things to get them out.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-689", "start": 4404.968, "end": 4405.835, "text": "Okay, got that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-690", "start": 4407.232, "end": 4411.133, "text": "Dynamic pricing in and of itself is not an overarching concern.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-691", "start": 4411.325, "end": 4416.286, "text": "Dynamic pricing, while surveillance becomes part of the market, becomes a concern.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-692", "start": 4416.446, "end": 4427.583, "text": "Meaning, if dynamic pricing occurs based on the use of surveillance, that's where I think we get into the possibility of the Of the unfair practice.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-693", "start": 4428.192, "end": 4446.762, "text": "So by defining what dynamic pricing is and limiting the number of times a day that an item can change prices means that even if surveillance was present, even though we're banning it, if it was present, you're preventing that exploitative thing of dynamic based on the individual instead of dynamic based on the market.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-694", "start": 4447.083, "end": 4452.995, "text": "And what we're trying to do is make sure that pricing is not based on the individual and the use of their PII when they walk through the store.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-695", "start": 4453.043, "end": 4453.155, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-696", "start": 4453.717, "end": 4457.021, "text": "They are 2 different things, but they do go hand in hand.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-697", "start": 4457.422, "end": 4464.736, "text": "The majority of this is really about the surveillance part, but you're hitting a kind of where the 2 items kind of match up.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-698", "start": 4464.8, "end": 4471.072, "text": "And I will say, just in the public sphere, these words get used interchangeably quite a lot, which is part of why we've defined it.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-699", "start": 4471.2, "end": 4472.981, "text": "Luke or Dan, you'd have anything to add here?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-700", "start": 4473.446, "end": 4478.226, "text": "Yeah, just to speak a little bit more around the why once a day and limiting how often.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-701", "start": 4478.675, "end": 4481.546, "text": "You know, when we think of dynamic pricing, we often think of things yeah.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-702", "start": 4481.803, "end": 4488.751, "text": "Like concert tickets going up when there's lower supply of it, or the cost of water going up when a hurricane hits, that sort of thing.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-703", "start": 4488.944, "end": 4518.896, "text": "But we think that there's a possibility here where using that dynamic pricing could be used exploitatively if the retailers start to look at that surveillance information and know what kind of consumers, what demographics, which income levels are shopping when, and might be able to charge, you know, a different price from 10:00 AM to 2:00 PM when someone who has more flexibility or more income might be able to shop versus a price that happens after typical retail hours.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-704", "start": 4518.96, "end": 4528.851, "text": "And so we wanted to make sure that we're not being overly prescriptive, but we're doing what we can to keep regular price setting practices and making sure there's not an extra loophole for exploitation there.", "speaker": "Luke Zach" }, { "id": "cue-705", "start": 4529.702, "end": 4533.909, "text": "And Councilor, apologies, my name's Daniel Lukow with the Portland Bureau of Transportation.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-706", "start": 4534.036, "end": 4535.671, "text": "Councilor Zimmerman's office, just to add.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-707", "start": 4536.616, "end": 4540.686, "text": "Dynamic pricing, I think, we think of as purely external.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-708", "start": 4541.102, "end": 4542.881, "text": "So classically that would apply to like the weather.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-709", "start": 4543.186, "end": 4552.8, "text": "Like let's say like there's the sudden heat wave and they wanna apply and there's a desire to charge more for water or ice cream as an example.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-710", "start": 4553.2, "end": 4557.174, "text": "That would be something that's not based on PII, that's based purely on external factors.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-711", "start": 4558.632, "end": 4560.667, "text": "And so that's why there does need to be some—.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-712", "start": 4560.667, "end": 4560.795, "text": "Yeah.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-713", "start": 4561.424, "end": 4564.307, "text": "Element for the city to step in and prevent that from being exploited too.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-714", "start": 4568.885, "end": 4578.595, "text": "Okay, so then to Councilor Murillo as it relates to your amendment.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-715", "start": 4578.644, "end": 4594.391, "text": "So I, I think I understand your amendment as far as like your policy intent, but Maybe could you just tell me a little bit more about what you saw in the original ordinance that's making you feel these additional protections were necessary?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-716", "start": 4594.488, "end": 4599.76, "text": "Just tell me a little more of that just so I can understand, and then I have some specific questions.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-717", "start": 4601.218, "end": 4602.468, "text": "Yeah, thanks for that question.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-718", "start": 4602.821, "end": 4605.096, "text": "Um, I think the bones here are good.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-719", "start": 4605.176, "end": 4620.264, "text": "It's just, again, this is a very meaty topic, and I am a little bit concerned that people, I think, Frankly, can barely define some of the things that we're talking about, and they're clearly ready to vote this through when they don't have a full grasp of this.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-720", "start": 4620.665, "end": 4630.066, "text": "Like, I'm a little frustrated that we always talk about committees as being a place to talk through amendments, and then we're resistant to some of that updating.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-721", "start": 4631.381, "end": 4637.445, "text": "The ordinance as written right now does not actually address surveillance pricing as it operates in practice.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-722", "start": 4637.638, "end": 4638.632, "text": "That is the concern that I have.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-723", "start": 4638.68, "end": 4638.857, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-724", "start": 4639.642, "end": 4647.704, "text": "So the extent— so to the extent that we're interested in engaging with that reality, we need to have additional discussions.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-725", "start": 4647.816, "end": 4649.066, "text": "That's just the reality of it.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-726", "start": 4649.483, "end": 4654.019, "text": "We're also at risk of moving out of alignment with what the state is working on right now.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-727", "start": 4654.692, "end": 4657.561, "text": "And I think that we do need to be in alignment.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-728", "start": 4657.657, "end": 4668.011, "text": "I think we either need to have like a workgroup here to really dig into some of the meat of this, or we need to try to join a state workgroup as well to make sure that we're influencing that policy.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-729", "start": 4670.098, "end": 4678.207, "text": "But to rush through some of this without like a full understanding of it, lacking the enforcement mechanism is concerning to me.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-730", "start": 4678.608, "end": 4686.236, "text": "What the amendment does is that it closes the loophole that actually allows discounting based on people's personal data.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-731", "start": 4687.28, "end": 4692.948, "text": "We do have Attorney Matt Gander here as well if people want to ask a little bit more questions about some of the differences.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-732", "start": 4693.478, "end": 4696.095, "text": "I was going to say that because you asked for him earlier and then he didn't come up.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-733", "start": 4696.256, "end": 4701.449, "text": "So maybe could he come up so we could get some more information since he's saying he helped with drafting these?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-734", "start": 4702.219, "end": 4705.553, "text": "So happy to have him come up if you have questions for him, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-735", "start": 4705.633, "end": 4712.318, "text": "I think it had sounded like Councilor Murillo had wanted him to, but then didn't ask during her time.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-736", "start": 4712.398, "end": 4713.344, "text": "So, okay.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-737", "start": 4714.402, "end": 4716.133, "text": "Mr. Leander, welcome.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-738", "start": 4716.309, "end": 4717.48, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-739", "start": 4718.377, "end": 4721.215, "text": "Okay, so the loophole— say one more time.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-740", "start": 4721.279, "end": 4727.579, "text": "The loophole you're closing is you believe that as written without this amendment, it doesn't actually ban surveillance pricing.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-741", "start": 4728.06, "end": 4730.343, "text": "I'm oversimplifying, but is that what I'm hearing you say?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-742", "start": 4731.153, "end": 4736.125, "text": "And therefore, could I ask what is the legal change, how you're closing the loophole?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-743", "start": 4738.689, "end": 4742.049, "text": "Matt Gander, Deputy City Attorney.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-744", "start": 4743.276, "end": 4756.464, "text": "I think the difference is whether or not you want to regulate the use of personal data in discount programs and the extent to to which you want to regulate that.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-745", "start": 4757.301, "end": 4765.439, "text": "And just to get it out of the way, we've advised that these are both legally defensible and have the same legal risk profile.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-746", "start": 4765.488, "end": 4768.186, "text": "So right now we're having a policy discussion.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-747", "start": 4770.906, "end": 4771.164, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-748", "start": 4774.698, "end": 4781.092, "text": "Yeah, I think I'm also struggling just with the concept of like how we do this work in committee, right?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-749", "start": 4781.157, "end": 4799.078, "text": "Because obviously Councilor Morillo is bringing forward a legitimate you know, policy suggestion to this policy, we're all digesting it and trying to figure out, you know, what is the ultimate, I guess, intent we're trying to accomplish with the policy.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-750", "start": 4799.271, "end": 4808.439, "text": "And so, yeah, I don't know how to— I'm concerned about like just being like, I don't have any other like specific questions, but I want to talk this out and kind of hear where everyone's at.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-751", "start": 4808.519, "end": 4810.398, "text": "If people are just going to rush through and just— I think we're going to go through the agenda items.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-752", "start": 4811.057, "end": 4815.54, "text": "So I think I'm, I'm stalling a little bit because I'm like, can we have a discussion?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-753", "start": 4815.636, "end": 4817.436, "text": "I don't want this to just be an up or down vote.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-754", "start": 4817.484, "end": 4822.77, "text": "Like, I actually want to talk about the policy outcomes that both are trying to accomplish so that I can weigh where I land.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-755", "start": 4822.818, "end": 4829.647, "text": "So I guess, like, as chair, I just want to know how can we facilitate this in a way that it doesn't just become let's just vote on it and be done with it?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-756", "start": 4829.712, "end": 4836.669, "text": "Because personally, I'm very interested in the concepts that are being introduced in this amendment, but I want to talk it out and I want to hear what people's concerns are.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-757", "start": 4837.105, "end": 4840.031, "text": "And I'd rather workshop that here in the committee where we're told we're supposed to.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-758", "start": 4840.322, "end": 4842.213, "text": "So that's where I'm at.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-759", "start": 4842.504, "end": 4843.102, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-760", "start": 4843.15, "end": 4846.189, "text": "I don't think anybody has signaled yet where they're at on this.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-761", "start": 4850.456, "end": 4854.644, "text": "So I think you've got a lot more folks in the queue still.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-762", "start": 4854.693, "end": 4857.07, "text": "Hopefully we can have some of that conversation here.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-763", "start": 4857.636, "end": 4861.515, "text": "I know I've got a couple things I want to float as well.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-764", "start": 4862.689, "end": 4864.765, "text": "Councilor Morillo, you were next in the queue.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-765", "start": 4866.099, "end": 4874.818, "text": "Yeah, well, I don't think that's true because I think some folks said, I've heard from 2 people, so I'm done considering the amendment on the table.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-766", "start": 4875.733, "end": 4878.928, "text": "And I take that very seriously in a policy discussion.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-767", "start": 4879.121, "end": 4879.507, "text": "I do.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-768", "start": 4880.791, "end": 4898.305, "text": "But I guess to clarify what Councilor Avalos is saying or questioning, to answer your question, the difference that we have in these policies is that differential discounts are individual pricing because when it's based on personal data.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-769", "start": 4898.625, "end": 4905.719, "text": "So if you have a paper coupon that just says all veterans get this discount, everyone is getting that same discount.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-770", "start": 4906.007, "end": 4917.048, "text": "But the difference is that when they are collecting your data and aggregating it based on different things, and you are only seeing that discount, you think that you're getting the full discount, but you don't know what your neighbor is getting.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-771", "start": 4917.096, "end": 4926.29, "text": "So if you're a senior, So it's still differential even if it's based on some sort of identity factor like being a senior, being a veteran, that type of thing.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-772", "start": 4926.661, "end": 4934.44, "text": "So that's the loophole that I'm trying to close with this amendment because this is still surveillance pricing.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-773", "start": 4935.118, "end": 4937.692, "text": "It's just surveillance pricing within a loyalty program.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-774", "start": 4941.487, "end": 4943.201, "text": "Luckily, Councilor Zimmerman, you're next in the queue.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-775", "start": 4944.765, "end": 4952.557, "text": "So I think this is a really helpful part of the discussion in terms of how we crafted some of, um, the thoughts here, right?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-776", "start": 4952.621, "end": 4954.594, "text": "So I am a veteran.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-777", "start": 4955.011, "end": 4960.238, "text": "I will go to certain places and I will be given that discount.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-778", "start": 4960.623, "end": 4960.815, "text": "The—.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-779", "start": 4961.2, "end": 4971.205, "text": "What is important in that is that there are plenty of places that I go where I don't identify myself as a veteran, and so then they have no way of knowing that I'm a veteran.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-780", "start": 4971.462, "end": 4972.906, "text": "And so I don't get that discount.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-781", "start": 4974.174, "end": 4982.455, "text": "What I'm highlighting here is that I've chosen, right, if I go to Home Depot or Lowe's, those are 2 places where I seem to use my veterans discount.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-782", "start": 4983.258, "end": 4986.74, "text": "I have entered into a program to receive that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-783", "start": 4986.868, "end": 4990.11, "text": "They are aware of that information only because I told them about it.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-784", "start": 4990.479, "end": 4994.507, "text": "And I— so that's where I think that we're actually butting up against.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-785", "start": 4994.571, "end": 4997.268, "text": "I don't think that that qualifies as surveillance because I supplied it.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-786", "start": 4997.316, "end": 4997.829, "text": "I think that's a good point.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-787", "start": 4998.102, "end": 5007.046, "text": "Now, if I walked in, as much as I would like to get a discount just because I walked in, I think it's kind of gross that they could know that I was a veteran without telling them.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-788", "start": 5007.977, "end": 5015.989, "text": "And what my ordinance does here, and what the amendments— my— what the, what the ordinance does without amendments, is it protects against that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-789", "start": 5016.246, "end": 5033.386, "text": "And that is the nature of personally identifiable information, which is you, as any consumer, can choose what you Ask to participate in, but you shouldn't be put into that situation without your own, um, your, your own volunteering of that status.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-790", "start": 5033.659, "end": 5035.215, "text": "And I think that that's an important part.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-791", "start": 5035.969, "end": 5042.98, "text": "So for, for that, we discussed that quite a lot, which is why, why does this— why is this important?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-792", "start": 5043.124, "end": 5061.648, "text": "And where I've landed as a policymaker is my ability to voluntarily take out the Safeway Rewards program, my ability to voluntarily say I am a senior even if I look old, My ability to voluntarily say I am a veteran is very different than automatic application.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-793", "start": 5061.696, "end": 5064.757, "text": "And I think that's what at the heart of this is what we're getting at.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-794", "start": 5068.56, "end": 5085.674, "text": "I wanted to— and just in terms of some of the advising and the conversations that we had, I'm just curious, Mr. Salvaggio, why you know, we've seen language from other states, and I'm kind of curious, we made some choices, you guys advised on some things.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-795", "start": 5085.867, "end": 5091.979, "text": "What are some of the reasons that we didn't maybe look at or use the language from other states after our learning from them?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-796", "start": 5092.49, "end": 5092.804, "text": "Sure.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-797", "start": 5093.481, "end": 5094.984, "text": "Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the committee.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-798", "start": 5096.853, "end": 5113.565, "text": "That's a good question, 'cause obviously I think everyone here that's involved in this, yourselves included, have probably spoken with some out-of-state experts and people that have been working on this, as have we.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-799", "start": 5115.459, "end": 5121.938, "text": "And we find it very, very important to gather those concepts, those thoughts, those experiences.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-800", "start": 5122.535, "end": 5131.142, "text": "But then also remember that when we draft, we try not to cut and paste from other states because—.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-801", "start": 5131.142, "end": 5131.266, "text": "Yeah.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-802", "start": 5132.081, "end": 5138.837, "text": "As the effect of terms of art can vary widely from state to state.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-803", "start": 5139.015, "end": 5148.997, "text": "And so for example, when I— and I could be wrong, but I think I heard Councilor Murillo refer to the word a consumer as opposed to any consumer.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-804", "start": 5152.12, "end": 5167.31, "text": "Oregon's legislative drafting manual has instructions, as granular as it may seem, That expressly equate the word a in that particular circumstance to the— equate it to the word every or any.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-805", "start": 5168.135, "end": 5173.866, "text": "And New York, as far as I can tell, does not have such an instruction.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-806", "start": 5174.519, "end": 5184.31, "text": "And so that's just to highlight the fact that what means one thing in one state may not mean another thing in another state or another jurisdiction.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-807", "start": 5184.359, "end": 5184.507, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-808", "start": 5185.916, "end": 5203.806, "text": "And so I see the current Zimmerman 1 draft as, I think, probably more solid, I would say, in terms of those protections.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-809", "start": 5204.306, "end": 5208.033, "text": "In terms of loyalty programs as a—.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-810", "start": 5208.759, "end": 5209.904, "text": "As a—.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-811", "start": 5210.707, "end": 5218.054, "text": "As a workaround, we wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be some kind of lasso around what a loyalty program is.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-812", "start": 5218.119, "end": 5224.719, "text": "We can't just have exemptions created and then call loyalty programs.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-813", "start": 5225.762, "end": 5238.073, "text": "But to the extent that a consumer in Oregon, meaning every or any consumer, can walk into Fred Meyer, whether you're wearing a barrel and suspenders or whether you're strutting in with a diamond-tipped cane and top hat, yeah.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-814", "start": 5238.379, "end": 5240.246, "text": "You're still going to get that same little red card.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-815", "start": 5241.035, "end": 5245.785, "text": "And that's going to give you the same terms as anyone else.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-816", "start": 5245.881, "end": 5246.799, "text": "Now, if I'm Mr.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-817", "start": 5246.847, "end": 5254.075, "text": "Monopoly, I'm probably going to accrue sales that get to my $5 discount a lot quicker than if I'm not.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-818", "start": 5255.732, "end": 5263.546, "text": "But the equity of terms does not necessarily guarantee an equity of outcomes under those terms.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-819", "start": 5265.481, "end": 5299.225, "text": "But from our perspective and our opinion, as long as those terms are being distributed equitably and as long as we are basing these discounts from the kind of lodestone of the established retail price, which is what's advertised to consumers, I feel, uh, um, feel much, much more, uh, uh, confident in that, in that approach.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-820", "start": 5299.682, "end": 5305.389, "text": "And Chair Pirtle-Guiney and Councilor Zimmerman, if I may, um, so to date, 4 states have passed this.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-821", "start": 5306.25, "end": 5311.841, "text": "Maryland, Connecticut don't take effect until October, so there's a lot of unknown about the policy before you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-822", "start": 5312.612, "end": 5318.528, "text": "Uh, New Jersey and New York, which is still waiting for its governor to sign, I believe as of Monday last week.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-823", "start": 5318.929, "end": 5321.044, "text": "Um, you know, those are a lot coming online.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-824", "start": 5321.252, "end": 5324.04, "text": "I think we also learn a lot from what hasn't happened.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-825", "start": 5324.793, "end": 5334.615, "text": "Colorado's legislation was vetoed by their governor, specifically citing concerns about the impact on affordability coupons, loyalty programs, manufacturer coupons.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-826", "start": 5335.528, "end": 5344.517, "text": "The state of California just spent 6 months on this policy, and on the eve before they adjourned, it died and did not advance to the Senate floor on a concurrence vote.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-827", "start": 5344.838, "end": 5352.26, "text": "Specifically from the Democrat chair of the Privacy Committee, citing concerns around affordability and its impact on coupons and loyalty programs.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-828", "start": 5352.854, "end": 5354.91, "text": "So this is not something that we take lightly.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-829", "start": 5355.746, "end": 5358.123, "text": "It is something that we do very intentionally and thoughtfully.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-830", "start": 5358.959, "end": 5362.589, "text": "So I would urge that similar caution and concern as you approach these issues.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-831", "start": 5362.654, "end": 5366.3, "text": "And I will also share, Mr. Salvaggio and I are both at the Oregon table.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-832", "start": 5366.991, "end": 5367.923, "text": "It has only had one meeting.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-833", "start": 5368.035, "end": 5369.85, "text": "It is at 60 minutes of conversation.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-834", "start": 5369.963, "end": 5370.927, "text": "There is no draft.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-835", "start": 5371.007, "end": 5372.019, "text": "There is no specifics.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-836", "start": 5372.884, "end": 5377.146, "text": "I know that Representative Chotson welcomes engagement.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-837", "start": 5377.195, "end": 5379.188, "text": "I know that Councilor Zimmerman has had those conversations.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-838", "start": 5379.6, "end": 5381.057, "text": "He's looking to what Portland is doing.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-839", "start": 5381.154, "end": 5382.433, "text": "He's watching what we're doing.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-840", "start": 5383.097, "end": 5385.106, "text": "And I think we'll take that into consideration.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-841", "start": 5385.219, "end": 5388.245, "text": "And so urge you to continue to engage at that statewide level as well.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-842", "start": 5389.743, "end": 5390.081, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-843", "start": 5391.74, "end": 5396.668, "text": "With respect to— there was a point made about advertised price earlier.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-844", "start": 5396.829, "end": 5399.944, "text": "And just to note, you know, when we say I was going to say, we wrote things with attorneys.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-845", "start": 5400.168, "end": 5403.65, "text": "Mr. Gander and Naomi Sheffield both worked on this with us.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-846", "start": 5403.73, "end": 5408.013, "text": "This may be the most lawyered ordinance I've ever participated in.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-847", "start": 5408.077, "end": 5410.997, "text": "So we also, of course, have gone through many machinations of this.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-848", "start": 5411.911, "end": 5422.964, "text": "But I just want to note in terms of advertise that the advice that we got was that the removal of all restrictions that had to do with, quote, advertised was due to compelled speech First Amendment concerns.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-849", "start": 5423.157, "end": 5424.312, "text": "And so that did come up.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-850", "start": 5424.376, "end": 5424.713, "text": "I wanted to address that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-851", "start": 5424.761, "end": 5424.969, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-852", "start": 5428.998, "end": 5434.135, "text": "I am listening to these— to this discussion, and this is a large, large, large amendment.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-853", "start": 5434.552, "end": 5440.845, "text": "And so this is a helpful conversation between all 5, and I will continue to do that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-854", "start": 5441.359, "end": 5445.452, "text": "And once complete, you know, decide where I'm at on it.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-855", "start": 5445.548, "end": 5452.402, "text": "But I think the point we just heard, colleagues, is one thing I would like to remind you about with respect to what could happen at the city council level.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-856", "start": 5452.451, "end": 5452.547, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-857", "start": 5454.358, "end": 5474.668, "text": "I hope that we act so that when the state acts, it can take up the mantle of this type of pricing in the service industry, not the goods industry, because we have done so good at the goods industry version that they can look at ours and say, okay, here are the couple of tweaks we would make at the state, but generally Portland got it right.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-858", "start": 5475.052, "end": 5487.608, "text": "Because I think the more exploitative and already in existence is happening in the Uber and airline and hotel markets that we're not prepared to take action on, the state is.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-859", "start": 5487.8, "end": 5489.452, "text": "I think that these can be complementary.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-860", "start": 5490.591, "end": 5506.775, "text": "But also, I think when you hear about what will go on at the state is that it's very likely— we've seen already other states that I think have similar legislative bents— is that it may not come together, and then we will miss another full session where no action occurs.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-861", "start": 5506.871, "end": 5508.33, "text": "And so I don't want to muddy that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-862", "start": 5509.052, "end": 5512.354, "text": "And I take those, those different state examples pretty seriously.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-863", "start": 5512.418, "end": 5516.602, "text": "So I'll hold for now, Chair, and happy to answer other questions as they come up.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-864", "start": 5516.65, "end": 5516.971, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-865", "start": 5517.628, "end": 5518.75, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-866", "start": 5519.376, "end": 5521.043, "text": "I am next in the queue.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-867", "start": 5521.379, "end": 5527.343, "text": "And Mr. Gander, I'm wondering if you can help me out on this advertised price issue.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-868", "start": 5528.112, "end": 5543.563, "text": "I have some thoughts on the broader amendment and approach here, but one piece that Councilor Murillo spoke to that stood out to me was whether the new definition, the new— what number is that?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-869", "start": 5543.646, "end": 5545.06, "text": "New F, retail price.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-870", "start": 5546.69, "end": 5551.023, "text": "The then current price kind of starts us off at that advertised price.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-871", "start": 5551.135, "end": 5555.259, "text": "And Councilor Zimmerman just shared that you had had concerns over that language.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-872", "start": 5556.11, "end": 5580.225, "text": "I'm wondering if there's anything that you can share about the meaning of then current price in the new F retail price definition to help me understand whether we're starting people at the same baseline that you're then getting some level of discount potential from, or whether that still allows for a different baseline for different consumers.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-873", "start": 5580.905, "end": 5581.148, "text": "Sure.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-874", "start": 5583.158, "end": 5587.222, "text": "So if you look at the definition of surveillance yes.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-875", "start": 5587.303, "end": 5591.719, "text": "In the ordinance pricing, it uses the phrase retail price, right?", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-876", "start": 5591.816, "end": 5600.11, "text": "And it establishes how or what one cannot do in calculating a retail price.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-877", "start": 5600.433, "end": 5610.633, "text": "And so to minimize First Amendment risk, we have advised that you should focus on the terms of the transaction, right?", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-878", "start": 5610.698, "end": 5618.982, "text": "The, the price that is offered to a consumer And focus on regulating that, the, the actual economic transaction.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-879", "start": 5619.11, "end": 5629.208, "text": "And maybe you could say that the advertised price is the price that's offered, but the language we've recommended is offered, which is consistent with First Amendment risk.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-880", "start": 5629.304, "end": 5639.354, "text": "So if you look at retail price, that, that defines the baseline price that is offered to a consumer, as you've said.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-881", "start": 5639.627, "end": 5642.592, "text": "And then the difference between the ordinances yes.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-882", "start": 5642.929, "end": 5662.181, "text": "Is that Councilor Zimmerman has said you cannot do surveillance pricing in calculating that baseline price, but you can consider information particular to the consumer in calculating discounts and promotions and fees, right?", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-883", "start": 5662.663, "end": 5685.574, "text": "And Councilor Murillo's amendment says all of the things that you can't do in the surveillance pricing definition, Right, you cannot do when you're determining both the baseline price or the discounts or the fees that are charged to a consumer unless they fit under the exemptions.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-884", "start": 5686.488, "end": 5693.416, "text": "But you didn't have the same concern with advertised price in the definition of retail price in the amendment?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-885", "start": 5698.017, "end": 5699.392, "text": "Which amendment are you talking about?", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-886", "start": 5699.699, "end": 5707.993, "text": "Uh, Morillo 1 defines retail price including the price at which a consumer good is advertised.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-887", "start": 5709.848, "end": 5722.915, "text": "I know this is just a small piece, but it seems like it has a— if the definition means something different, it seems like that has an impact.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-888", "start": 5723.35, "end": 5725.025, "text": "What page are you looking at?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-889", "start": 5725.299, "end": 5725.734, "text": "This is—.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-890", "start": 5725.734, "end": 5727.555, "text": "I'm looking at F.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-891", "start": 5727.91, "end": 5728.554, "text": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-892", "start": 5728.86, "end": 5730.036, "text": "Retail price.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-893", "start": 5731.89, "end": 5746.161, "text": "Um, I will say we were working on this definition kind of up to the deadline, so I think it's a question for the carrier about whether or not they want to keep advertised in the definition from a legal risk perspective.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-894", "start": 5746.419, "end": 5747.906, "text": "Okay, so the risk is the same.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-895", "start": 5748.116, "end": 5757.056, "text": "I'm trying to understand why the language in the underlying and it sounded like a concern was raised that wasn't raised in Morillo 1.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-896", "start": 5757.169, "end": 5761.382, "text": "You had said that they were both equally fine, so I wanted to understand that.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-897", "start": 5761.447, "end": 5763.721, "text": "So it sounds like you have that concern either way.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-898", "start": 5765.142, "end": 5784.354, "text": "I think commercial speech is defined as speech that proposes the terms of a transaction, and we advise that we should be regulating the price that is offered to consumers as opposed to regulating other types of speech that happens in the marketplace.", "speaker": "Matt Gander" }, { "id": "cue-899", "start": 5786.936, "end": 5809.508, "text": "Okay, colleagues, I continue as we go through this debate to feel like there's this proposal before us which is looking at, um, upward pressure on prices, future technology, making sure that we don't go down a path that has not been entered here.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-900", "start": 5809.956, "end": 5817.958, "text": "And then an amendment that looks at downward pressure and coupons and a current practice.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-901", "start": 5818.15, "end": 5832.71, "text": "And Councilor Murillo, I'm really interested in us having a broader conversation about that current practice, but I'm also kind of interested in getting this ban on a future practice out the door as quickly as possible.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-902", "start": 5833.688, "end": 5853.628, "text": "Um, so my current inclination Is to say let's move the underlying and let's come back to this question about whether there are problems with the current practice, which is a little bit different from the underlying, in the future.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-903", "start": 5853.807, "end": 5872.55, "text": "I'm also looking at the definitions, and in the underlying personal data, right, defined as we've talked about So surveillance pricing means offering or facilitating the offering of a retail price for a consumer good that is based on personal data.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-904", "start": 5874.05, "end": 5879.372, "text": "Restrictions: surveillance pricing is not allowed, right?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-905", "start": 5879.421, "end": 5882.083, "text": "A vendor may not engage in surveillance pricing.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-906", "start": 5883.195, "end": 5917.185, "text": "So we are in the underlying moving forward with I understand there are still questions about discount programs, but I, like I said, I keep coming back to the idea that that is a much broader topic, and we need to get this ban on surveillance pricing out quickly so that we're signaling to the legislature that we're doing this whether or not they do, um, as they move forward this year.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-907", "start": 5917.233, "end": 5917.345, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-908", "start": 5917.442, "end": 5921.72, "text": "So that's where I currently sit.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-909", "start": 5921.768, "end": 5945.273, "text": "We've got 2 more people in the queue, but I just, I want to note that, Councilor Avalos, you asked for a sense of where people are, and I keep feeling like these are 2 very different discussions, one on future technology that we need to put a stop to before it gets here, and one on current practices that we might want to delve deeper into.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-910", "start": 5945.321, "end": 5945.481, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-911", "start": 5946.906, "end": 5961.965, "text": "And take the time to figure out if those current practices are actually making things more expensive under the veil of saying that it's making things more affordable, which is certainly a question that we should give some time and thought to.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-912", "start": 5963.65, "end": 5964.961, "text": "Councilor Murillo, you're next in the queue.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-913", "start": 5967.472, "end": 5968.249, "text": "Yeah, thanks for that.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-914", "start": 5968.379, "end": 5971.828, "text": "Can you clarify what you mean by things that are happening in the future?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-915", "start": 5972.608, "end": 5977.565, "text": "Do you mean that the coupon discount thing does not apply I'm just a bit confused.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-916", "start": 5978.515, "end": 6004.928, "text": "We've heard that the use of personal data in surveillance pricing is, as far as folks who have spoken today know, not happening in grocery stores in our area, but that the technology is coming online as we get the electronic pricing on shelves and things like that that could allow it to happen.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-917", "start": 6005.232, "end": 6011.977, "text": "In the future, and that we therefore need to signal as quickly as possible that this is something that can't happen here.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-918", "start": 6012.362, "end": 6012.602, "text": "I see.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-919", "start": 6012.714, "end": 6018.562, "text": "So that to me feels like a let's as quickly as possible say this cannot happen here.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-920", "start": 6019.732, "end": 6033.639, "text": "There is this broader conversation that you've brought up, and I really appreciate you bringing it up, about whether consumer data-driven coupons are actually making things more expensive for people as opposed to more affordable.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-921", "start": 6033.752, "end": 6039.738, "text": "For people, which I think we should absolutely take up and have broader discussions about as we think about affordability.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-922", "start": 6040.74, "end": 6045.972, "text": "For me, that requires talking to a lot more experts and understanding that issue more deeply.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-923", "start": 6046.809, "end": 6052.151, "text": "And I agree that committees are the place to dig in on issues like that.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-924", "start": 6052.216, "end": 6063.405, "text": "But because I am also hearing that we need to signal as quickly as possible about surveillance pricing, I'm wanting to take on these 2 issues, which feel to me like distinct issues that could be but don't have to be done together.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-925", "start": 6063.471, "end": 6063.618, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-926", "start": 6069.4, "end": 6070, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-927", "start": 6070, "end": 6070.7, "text": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-928", "start": 6070.7, "end": 6074.34, "text": "That's helpful to understand where you're coming from.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-929", "start": 6074.34, "end": 6074.9, "text": "I agree.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-930", "start": 6074.9, "end": 6081.56, "text": "I think we, you know, I do want to make sure that it doesn't come to Oregon and then we're backtracking afterwards.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-931", "start": 6082.36, "end": 6084.94, "text": "But I do want to clarify a few things that I heard today.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-932", "start": 6085.26, "end": 6095.38, "text": "So under both the underlying ordinance and my amendment, you can still join a program or identify as a veteran or another protected class and still be able to participate in the program.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-933", "start": 6095.38, "end": 6095.4, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-934", "start": 6097.274, "end": 6104.547, "text": "Under Councilor Zimmerman's, once you do, the store can use what it knows about you to decide how big that discount is.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-935", "start": 6105.09, "end": 6109.044, "text": "That was reiterated by our attorney, Matt Gander, who worked on both of these.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-936", "start": 6110.206, "end": 6115.085, "text": "Under ours, under our amendment, everyone who qualifies gets the same discount.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-937", "start": 6115.946, "end": 6120.931, "text": "So that is the first instance of using personal information to give discounts.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-938", "start": 6120.98, "end": 6121.028, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-939", "start": 6121.332, "end": 6122.263, "text": "Different prices.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-940", "start": 6122.617, "end": 6124.351, "text": "That is still surveillance pricing.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-941", "start": 6124.929, "end": 6127.546, "text": "It's just that it's hidden within the loyalty program.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-942", "start": 6128.333, "end": 6133.102, "text": "So the FTC and other parties already refer to this as surveillance pricing.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-943", "start": 6133.696, "end": 6134.723, "text": "And I think that you're right.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-944", "start": 6134.82, "end": 6144.02, "text": "What we are doing here today and what passes through Portland City Council is setting a really important precedent for what the legislature does moving forward.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-945", "start": 6144.534, "end": 6146.091, "text": "But we also can—.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-946", "start": 6146.091, "end": 6146.429, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-947", "start": 6147.166, "end": 6164.763, "text": "Accidentally signal to the legislature that we are willing to pass a surveillance pricing policy that is supposed to ban it, that actually has a huge gaping hole and allows it to move forward anyways, under the guise that we're doing something for Portlanders or for Oregonians and making things better for them.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-948", "start": 6165.692, "end": 6171.349, "text": "So we don't gain a lot by getting this out the door, especially rushing this through committee.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-949", "start": 6172.167, "end": 6180.969, "text": "All we do is signal our inability to have a serious conversation about some of the loopholes that are still Very present in this policy.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-950", "start": 6182.445, "end": 6187.884, "text": "And the public, they're not going to be served by us saying that we banned something if we can't enforce it.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-951", "start": 6188.959, "end": 6194.174, "text": "So if we don't have any enforcement mechanisms in this, then the point is moot either way.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-952", "start": 6195.217, "end": 6197.335, "text": "So I really care about this policy.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-953", "start": 6198.394, "end": 6198.442, "text": "I—.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-954", "start": 6198.827, "end": 6202.228, "text": "Zimmerman knows I texted him very excitedly when I saw he was bringing this forward.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-955", "start": 6202.967, "end": 6212.815, "text": "And I'm worried that if we don't address these loopholes, it's not going to do thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-956", "start": 6213.122, "end": 6213.835, "text": "Councilor Avalos.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-957", "start": 6218.481, "end": 6239.128, "text": "Okay, um, I think where I'm landing is I share a concern around the loophole, and I don't Obviously, Councilor Morillo has brought her version of how to close that loophole, and that's what we're considering.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-958", "start": 6244.758, "end": 6266.421, "text": "I'm trying to understand maybe from Amanda, based on how you were reacting to it at first, like, it seems like both policies allow for loyalty programs, allow for some kind of specialization based on yes.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-959", "start": 6266.777, "end": 6283.95, "text": "But the difference being that under the current underlying, they could also, on top of that, the grocer, I guess, on top of that, could add more specialization to that loyalty program based on their personal data.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-960", "start": 6284.049, "end": 6286.791, "text": "This is how I'm interpreting what Councilor Morillo is saying.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-961", "start": 6287.593, "end": 6294.668, "text": "So I guess, can you explain what is your concern about that specifically?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-962", "start": 6294.732, "end": 6306.685, "text": "Because it's, you know, ultimately, if we're trying to ban surveillance pricing— and I think the other thing I'm getting confused about is like, this is about in the future, because it's like, there's all this technology.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-963", "start": 6306.861, "end": 6309.348, "text": "So what, the grocers haven't used it?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-964", "start": 6309.396, "end": 6310.086, "text": "Some of them are using it?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-965", "start": 6310.134, "end": 6310.519, "text": "I can't remember.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-966", "start": 6310.567, "end": 6311.417, "text": "I'm sure you said the history.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-967", "start": 6311.481, "end": 6312.588, "text": "I just can't remember right now.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-968", "start": 6312.669, "end": 6327.711, "text": "But— yeah, so the but yeah, so why don't we start with the first question, which is just what is your— why are you against us making that more clear that surveillance pricing or whatever can't be used even in loyalty if it already has some protections?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-969", "start": 6327.824, "end": 6330.017, "text": "Both of them have protections for loyalty programs.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-970", "start": 6331.548, "end": 6334.461, "text": "Yeah, um, and Chair Pirtle-Guiney and Councilor Avalos, appreciate the question.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-971", "start": 6334.558, "end": 6337.275, "text": "So, um, a couple things.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-972", "start": 6337.34, "end": 6346.662, "text": "One, I think as you heard from the definitions in these policies are really important and highly technical, and so like every word does matter.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-973", "start": 6346.727, "end": 6362.744, "text": "And it is very confusing because I think the other piece too to think— keep in mind is, as you had said earlier, this is regulating 2 different things, dynamic and surveillance, and it's also regulating grocery and all retail, including online retail, of all consumer goods.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-974", "start": 6362.793, "end": 6364.061, "text": "So we are not just talking about food, right?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-975", "start": 6364.125, "end": 6364.189, "text": "Yes.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-976", "start": 6364.462, "end": 6365.905, "text": "So it is really massive.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-977", "start": 6367.044, "end": 6374.02, "text": "So how each of these apply to each of those buckets, and I'm just here on behalf of grocery retail, and so you don't have a broader retail perspective on it.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-978", "start": 6374.068, "end": 6379.504, "text": "So I can tell you specifically for grocery, and maybe this is where some of the confusion comes in.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-979", "start": 6379.937, "end": 6383.561, "text": "Part of the problem is your definition of personal information includes purchase history.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-980", "start": 6383.626, "end": 6389.174, "text": "So if you think about consumer behavior or even inferences, right, about a consumer's purchase history.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-981", "start": 6389.254, "end": 6401.513, "text": "So for example, today a grocery retailer may share purchase history data with a third-party manufacturer like Coca-Cola because we know that Mr. Salvaggio drinks a lot of Diet Coke.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-982", "start": 6401.834, "end": 6405.765, "text": "He hasn't purchased Diet Coke in a month, and so he may need a coupon for $2, right?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-983", "start": 6406.888, "end": 6410.627, "text": "And so this is, I think, where the grocery industry looks at this issue a little bit differently.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-984", "start": 6411.06, "end": 6418.554, "text": "We support prohibiting using personal information to raise prices, but we absolutely use purchase history in our loyalty programs.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-985", "start": 6418.602, "end": 6425.705, "text": "It's the core of those loyalty programs to provide our consumers with coupons and discounts that are relevant to them and their shopping behaviors.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-986", "start": 6425.818, "end": 6428.798, "text": "And so that's maybe where the two kind of confuse the issue.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-987", "start": 6428.878, "end": 6438.124, "text": "So we're not using your personal information, we're not using your address, we're not using your income, we're not using all these horrific kind of examples and worst-case scenarios to drive prices.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-988", "start": 6439.038, "end": 6444.102, "text": "But we are using your purchase history and sometimes household information to build those loyalty programs.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-989", "start": 6444.166, "end": 6447.643, "text": "And again, I do want to say those are loyalty programs consumers opt into.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-990", "start": 6448.172, "end": 6462.296, "text": "And I'll just make a plug, Oregon has some of the strongest consumer protections in the state, including the Oregon Consumer Privacy Act, which was just passed by the legislature a few years ago that actually lets consumers opt out of their data being sold or shared.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-991", "start": 6462.344, "end": 6470.968, "text": "And so that's a really significant law that not every state, including Washington, doesn't even have, that was passed that does apply to grocery stores and our loyalty program.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-992", "start": 6471.033, "end": 6473.469, "text": "So that consumer data has a ton of protections wrapped around it.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-993", "start": 6473.998, "end": 6474.944, "text": "I don't know if that helps.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-994", "start": 6475.489, "end": 6484.258, "text": "Well, I guess then a follow-up is what I'm understanding in Murillo 1 is that you still can use purchase history, it's just more narrow, right?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-995", "start": 6484.322, "end": 6486.198, "text": "Like it's the tier thing, right?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-996", "start": 6486.262, "end": 6488.506, "text": "So maybe can you help me understand that, Councilor Murillo?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-997", "start": 6488.571, "end": 6496.506, "text": "Because it sounds like you still are allowing for purchase history, it's just that definition of like personal data that maybe we're grappling with.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-998", "start": 6496.586, "end": 6499.167, "text": "But isn't the intent that they still could use that?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-999", "start": 6499.231, "end": 6503.721, "text": "So So if I buy a lot of cat food, I could get a coupon for cat food because that's my history.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1000", "start": 6504.318, "end": 6506.58, "text": "But yeah, can you just help me understand that better?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1001", "start": 6507.36, "end": 6508.707, "text": "Yeah, that is exactly correct.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1002", "start": 6509.348, "end": 6510.022, "text": "You have it right.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1003", "start": 6512.098, "end": 6529.355, "text": "I do think the, you know, I do want my colleagues to consider too that the Oregon Consumer Privacy Act that protects some of the consumers under Oregon state law was directly fought by the person who is lobbying us on this surveillance pricing ordinance right now.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1004", "start": 6530.392, "end": 6539.409, "text": "So let's not pretend that that context does not exist when we talk about who's presenting before us and who is giving us a policy that may have a loophole for giant retailers.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1005", "start": 6541.45, "end": 6551.106, "text": "And Chair Pirtle-Guiney, if I may just weigh in and encourage the record to go back, I actually supported it and was on the workgroup and served on it for 2 years under Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1006", "start": 6552.107, "end": 6555.318, "text": "But yeah, details matter, and we're not going to support everything that's put on the table.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1007", "start": 6555.803, "end": 6560.28, "text": "I will say though, we disagree with the premise that you outlined in terms of the Councilmember Herbold.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1008", "start": 6560.28, "end": 6563.96, "text": "I think the councilor's comment about the Morillo amendment just narrowing it, I actually think it will eliminate it.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1009", "start": 6564.34, "end": 6567.03, "text": "And it's that application of equal to all.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1010", "start": 6567.26, "end": 6571.46, "text": "And because that's just not the way loyalty programs and coupons work, it's not provided equally to all.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1011", "start": 6571.46, "end": 6573.29, "text": "It is specific to your purchase history.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1012", "start": 6573.7, "end": 6576.32, "text": "And so those programs are customized to the consumer.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1013", "start": 6576.32, "end": 6584.3, "text": "And so I understand there's a philosophical difference in terms of wanting us to offer discounts or lower prices to everyone on every product on our shelf.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1014", "start": 6584.3, "end": 6590.135, "text": "It's just not how grocery, and I think significantly to this policy, because it's much different than Seattle.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1015", "start": 6590.231, "end": 6591.307, "text": "Seattle is just about grocery.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1016", "start": 6591.403, "end": 6592.623, "text": "This is also about retail.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1017", "start": 6593.345, "end": 6598.08, "text": "So equal to all products on your shelf online and at the brick-and-mortar stores is just very, very different.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1018", "start": 6598.304, "end": 6600.407, "text": "Why, why are you saying that it would be eliminated?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1019", "start": 6600.471, "end": 6610.47, "text": "Is it because it would be too hard to implement and so you would choose to just get rid of it entirely, or is it because there's some actual barrier that would mean you could not implement a loyalty program under these conditions?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1020", "start": 6610.807, "end": 6620.882, "text": "Yeah, I think probably the easiest way to understand it is It's the same way if somebody's, say, campaigning and you're using direct mail and you have a limited budget and you're going to talk to voters that are likely to turn out.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1021", "start": 6621.411, "end": 6627.65, "text": "These manufacturers and retailers have similar limited budgets, and I want somebody that's going to keep coming back to buy Diet Coke.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1022", "start": 6629.03, "end": 6638.108, "text": "Same thing, one of the examples that's come up in some of the other communities is there was a comment that this doesn't impact small grocers or small businesses, and it's actually not at all accurate.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1023", "start": 6638.412, "end": 6651.494, "text": "One of the ways that we target is where it actually lets competing products so if you're a small coffee producer and you want to compete with Starbucks, maybe you offer a $5 discount on somebody who buys Starbucks every month or every week.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1024", "start": 6652.217, "end": 6654.915, "text": "The only way you know that is based on their purchase history.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1025", "start": 6655.348, "end": 6658.319, "text": "So again, it's that equally applied to all philosophical difference.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1026", "start": 6658.399, "end": 6660.021, "text": "Again, it's just not how it works.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1027", "start": 6660.085, "end": 6661.064, "text": "Budgets are limited.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1028", "start": 6661.112, "end": 6665.062, "text": "We have to target based on what the consumer wants and where they're going to come back to.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1029", "start": 6665.223, "end": 6665.48, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1030", "start": 6668.032, "end": 6669.684, "text": "Councilor, did you have anything additional?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1031", "start": 6670.823, "end": 6673.822, "text": "Let's see, let me look.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1032", "start": 6674.689, "end": 6680.527, "text": "Then it looks like Mr. Salvaggio may have a response to your previous question if you're interested in that.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1033", "start": 6680.607, "end": 6681.233, "text": "Sure, sure, go ahead.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1034", "start": 6681.329, "end": 6683.719, "text": "Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the committee.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1035", "start": 6685.018, "end": 6694.545, "text": "I just wanna say very quickly to take a few steps back from the minutia of the loyalty programs and just recontextualize.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1036", "start": 6695.235, "end": 6703.454, "text": "These are programs That are designed to get union store shoppers continuing to come into union stores.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1037", "start": 6704.193, "end": 6721.149, "text": "And I wanna just reemphasize how important that is for us in that we depend on that predictability of customer inflow for not only revenue that we expect to share in, but also—.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1038", "start": 6721.149, "end": 6721.614, "text": "Yeah.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1039", "start": 6722.84, "end": 6726.393, "text": "In terms of staffing and shifts and whatnot.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1040", "start": 6728.38, "end": 6746.113, "text": "These are fundamental issues to our members, and I would not want to see those programs harmed inadvertently because we're trying to sew up a too tight ordinance here.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1041", "start": 6747.714, "end": 6759.291, "text": "I also just have to say, For the record, in good conscience, my colleague here and I, we agree sometimes, we disagree sometimes, and when we agree, we work together.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1042", "start": 6759.339, "end": 6761.74, "text": "When we disagree, we fight like cats and dogs.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1043", "start": 6761.852, "end": 6774.714, "text": "But I have never, ever known her to misapply or mislead anyone that she's been in front of, including myself.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1044", "start": 6775.548, "end": 6784.564, "text": "And I, just like I would expect the same courtesy, I don't feel that it's appropriate to make those suggestions.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1045", "start": 6786.056, "end": 6787.131, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1046", "start": 6787.917, "end": 6789.056, "text": "Councilor, anything further?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1047", "start": 6789.217, "end": 6791.222, "text": "I'll leave it at that for now and hear what others say.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1048", "start": 6791.431, "end": 6791.672, "text": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1049", "start": 6791.928, "end": 6792.009, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1050", "start": 6792.65, "end": 6795.747, "text": "Colleagues, I'll note that it is 3:50.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1051", "start": 6796.485, "end": 6804.426, "text": "We're a little past time on this, but I want to make sure everybody in the queue is able to ask any additional questions before we move to a vote.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1052", "start": 6804.475, "end": 6806.095, "text": "Councilor Zimmerman, did you have anything further?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1053", "start": 6807.98, "end": 6808.446, "text": "Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1054", "start": 6809.767, "end": 6816.577, "text": "I thought it might be responsible to kind of just discuss a little bit about philosophy and how I approach this.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1055", "start": 6817.108, "end": 6821.666, "text": "And we certainly have been working on this for so many months that we've gone round and round.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1056", "start": 6821.779, "end": 6840.71, "text": "Many of the issues that we're discussing today are things that my team and our conversations with our attorneys and with advocates We've landed here because I largely believe it's not our role to, as a city, do anything that, even if you pull the thread a little bit, is price setting, right?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1057", "start": 6840.758, "end": 6854.986, "text": "That's where I think that the market— if you're a third-party delivery app, for instance, I think that you have a relationship with your consumer that is important, that you get to say if you're a $5 delivery fee person or a $25 delivery fee person.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1058", "start": 6855.035, "end": 6855.355, "text": "I think that's a good point.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1059", "start": 6855.757, "end": 6857.394, "text": "I think that that's fine.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1060", "start": 6857.442, "end": 6862.885, "text": "I think that being set based on PII is where I'm trying to involve the city.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1061", "start": 6863.88, "end": 6881.748, "text": "But being able to have baseline prices, being able to have loyalty programs, being able to ensure that whatever service is being offered, whatever good is being offered, is that it is based on that company's market assessment and not on, on PII and surveillance.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1062", "start": 6881.796, "end": 6882.037, "text": "I think that's fine.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1063", "start": 6882.406, "end": 6884.799, "text": "Those are all achievable in the underlying.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1064", "start": 6885.698, "end": 6891.767, "text": "The, um, you know, we, we did publish this original document.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1065", "start": 6891.832, "end": 6894.272, "text": "It was supposed to be heard on, on August 11th.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1066", "start": 6894.609, "end": 6902.365, "text": "Um, in that time, you know, we continued to work on how do we make this better, and, and that's what you saw in Zimmerman 1.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1067", "start": 6902.493, "end": 6906.202, "text": "It was a single paragraph add and a couple words later that was changed.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1068", "start": 6908.459, "end": 6912.921, "text": "I'm cautious about the amendment, Maria 1, as it's been proposed.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1069", "start": 6913.002, "end": 6921.991, "text": "It's largely a rewrite, and that, that is giving me a little bit of heartburn in terms of reacting to it.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1070", "start": 6922.686, "end": 6936.457, "text": "And I do think that it gets to the heart of what we largely, in our discussions and what I'm trying to protect, it actually is interrupting that protection of the loyalty programs and the application of those protections.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1071", "start": 6936.57, "end": 6950.078, "text": "And I do think it gets closer to what I think is an unintended consequence of some price setting or elimination of what we would consider the market today.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1072", "start": 6950.239, "end": 6958.926, "text": "And so for those reasons, you know, this has been a helpful conversation, but this is a massive amendment that I won't be prepared to support today.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1073", "start": 6959.201, "end": 6971.435, "text": "But I do think that this was I think that this was a worthy— and I want to thank you, Chair, for giving it so much time, because this was a worthy conversation on a meaty topic that is moving faster than most legislative bodies can move.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1074", "start": 6971.579, "end": 6978.71, "text": "And so I think that that is the responsible action, and I agree with you in terms of getting, getting the original out there.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1075", "start": 6979.335, "end": 6986.514, "text": "I appreciate, but I do disagree with some of the items that were laid out in the second presentation about what what does that mean?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1076", "start": 6986.562, "end": 6991.389, "text": "I think it's important to distinguish what Maria 1 does versus, versus the underlying, but they're all important points.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1077", "start": 6992.336, "end": 7005.534, "text": "There's a philosophy in how we draft legislation here that I think you're seeing my style come out, which is minimal in order to be clear versus verbose in order to hit every angle.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1078", "start": 7005.886, "end": 7020.238, "text": "And I think setting a tone in our legislation is for what is and is not acceptable in Portland was the goal from which which I wrote this one, and I recognize that we are approaching it slightly different, but I believe everybody here has a similar goal in place.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1079", "start": 7021.174, "end": 7024.268, "text": "And for that, I do appreciate this conversation and everybody who's weighed in.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1080", "start": 7024.479, "end": 7027.917, "text": "And for this amendment, I, I will pass on it today though.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1081", "start": 7028.063, "end": 7028.323, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1082", "start": 7029.847, "end": 7030.446, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1083", "start": 7030.494, "end": 7031.385, "text": "Councilor Morillo.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1084", "start": 7032.987, "end": 7033.554, "text": "Thank you for that.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1085", "start": 7037.023, "end": 7042.313, "text": "Um, in terms of application of the law, There is no room for the debate.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1086", "start": 7043.58, "end": 7046.52, "text": "This policy will either solve the problem or it will not.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1087", "start": 7047.532, "end": 7054.706, "text": "And I want to say that my amendment again does not touch the loyalty programs.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1088", "start": 7055.233, "end": 7056.371, "text": "I can't say that enough.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1089", "start": 7058.192, "end": 7061.155, "text": "It still permits discounts based on purchase history.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1090", "start": 7061.851, "end": 7064.604, "text": "I'm going to read you a direct quote from the amendment in case it's unclear.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1091", "start": 7064.669, "end": 7064.815, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1092", "start": 7065.423, "end": 7071.036, "text": "Discounts offered to a subset of rewards program members based exclusively on prior purchase history.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1093", "start": 7071.501, "end": 7082.984, "text": "Tiered discount programs may not consider information about consumers' price sensitivity or any personal data beyond what is necessary to identify the consumer as eligible for the tiered discount.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1094", "start": 7083.882, "end": 7093.054, "text": "So if we care about the exact type of inferences and data exploitation that the FTC is talking about, That has to be included.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1095", "start": 7094.192, "end": 7099.561, "text": "And to say that this type of data is not being collected on people is inaccurate.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1096", "start": 7099.657, "end": 7104.097, "text": "This has been very extensively studied and it is being used against people.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1097", "start": 7105.091, "end": 7117.304, "text": "So we added the additional words not for the sake of being verbose or for making it overcomplicated or difficult to comprehend or to have a gotcha on my colleagues.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1098", "start": 7117.432, "end": 7118.842, "text": "I was told committee is the place to bring amendments.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1099", "start": 7118.907, "end": 7119.323, "text": "I think that's a good point.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1100", "start": 7121.476, "end": 7126.453, "text": "Because I don't want to bring it up full council and catch everyone by surprise and then be, be in trouble for that too.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1101", "start": 7128.389, "end": 7133.306, "text": "I brought it because I actually really care about solving this problem and I'm excited about this policy.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1102", "start": 7134.676, "end": 7145.148, "text": "And regarding the idea that we should ban this now and then fix the discount issue later, a differential price and a personalized discount are the same transaction described from 2 ends.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1103", "start": 7145.232, "end": 7145.316, "text": "Yes.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1104", "start": 7146.168, "end": 7158.15, "text": "If you pay $4.99 and your neighbor pays $4.49 for the same item because of your data, that's differential pricing, whether the store got there by marking you up or by marking your neighbor down.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1105", "start": 7158.712, "end": 7162.647, "text": "The store chooses the label, and it will always choose discount.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1106", "start": 7163.611, "end": 7168.22, "text": "That's why ban differential pricing now, discounts later bans nothing now.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1107", "start": 7169.071, "end": 7178.422, "text": "Under Zimmerman 1, the retail price So any differential delivered as a discount is outside the ban by definition.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1108", "start": 7179.256, "end": 7182.703, "text": "Every documented case is delivered by that— is delivered that way.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1109", "start": 7183.248, "end": 7189.244, "text": "Kroger's coupons, Instacart's shifting original price, DoorDash's personalized promotions.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1110", "start": 7190.077, "end": 7196.698, "text": "Seattle's mayor's office was asked whether a $1 discount to one shopper and none to another is functionally a form of individualized pricing.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1111", "start": 7196.746, "end": 7197.259, "text": "I think that's a fair question.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1112", "start": 7197.62, "end": 7200.15, "text": "Pricing, even if the company calls it a discount?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1113", "start": 7200.637, "end": 7202.324, "text": "And the answer is that yes, it is.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1114", "start": 7204.277, "end": 7206.609, "text": "We should continue to have the discussion.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1115", "start": 7208.245, "end": 7218.64, "text": "And if we're not willing to have one more hour to discuss this, to really solve the problem, I think that's a shame because I think this is a really cool policy.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1116", "start": 7218.849, "end": 7221.023, "text": "I'm excited about the people that brought this forward.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1117", "start": 7221.152, "end": 7232.444, "text": "I support but I also don't wanna support a policy that says it's gonna do something and leave a bunch of loopholes that doesn't actually protect the people that we claim we're trying to protect.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1118", "start": 7233.229, "end": 7235.619, "text": "I also wanna remind people that we're in committee.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1119", "start": 7236.196, "end": 7242.724, "text": "This is a really big issue for a lot of people, and we have 2 invited testimony folks up here.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1120", "start": 7243.429, "end": 7251.631, "text": "We don't have exactly like a broad consensus from the public about whether or not they want this to include the loyalty discounts as well.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1121", "start": 7252.728, "end": 7257.426, "text": "And I think that that's a loss and that's not great for our policymaking.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1122", "start": 7258.17, "end": 7260.886, "text": "So I understand, I can see the writing on the wall.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1123", "start": 7260.951, "end": 7265.334, "text": "We're probably gonna push this through committee without doing our due diligence, and that's fine.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1124", "start": 7265.463, "end": 7269.013, "text": "But we are leaving a huge hole in this policy, and I think that's a damn shame.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1125", "start": 7271.29, "end": 7271.899, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1126", "start": 7272.064, "end": 7272.772, "text": "Councilor Ryan.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1127", "start": 7273.036, "end": 7273.728, "text": "Yes, thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1128", "start": 7273.81, "end": 7274.601, "text": "It's time to vote.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1129", "start": 7276.333, "end": 7276.961, "text": "I call for the vote.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1130", "start": 7277.654, "end": 7281.99, "text": "Okay, um, we have one more person in the queue.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1131", "start": 7282.071, "end": 7285.862, "text": "Councilor Avalos, did you want to speak or can we move to a vote?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1132", "start": 7290.748, "end": 7300.072, "text": "Councilor Ryan, might I suggest that you move to not, um, that you move to close the queue so that we don't have to vote on voting, which I think would take longer than letting Councilor Avalos speak?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1133", "start": 7300.35, "end": 7301.79, "text": "That's the chair's prerogative.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1134", "start": 7301.79, "end": 7302.78, "text": "I just wanted to move this along.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1135", "start": 7302.97, "end": 7304.67, "text": "We're in a circle mode at this moment.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1136", "start": 7304.67, "end": 7304.93, "text": "Great.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1137", "start": 7304.93, "end": 7307.91, "text": "Why don't we close the queue and we will move to a vote after Councilor Avalos.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1138", "start": 7312.55, "end": 7314.69, "text": "Yeah.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1139", "start": 7314.69, "end": 7315.39, "text": "Hmm.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1140", "start": 7315.39, "end": 7319.75, "text": "Well, I'm actually a bit disappointed because I was looking forward to hearing what you were going to say.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1141", "start": 7319.75, "end": 7322.69, "text": "So I thought you were going to offer your perspective on the way you're moving.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1142", "start": 7322.69, "end": 7323.15, "text": "I did earlier.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1143", "start": 7323.15, "end": 7323.91, "text": "I'm sorry you didn't hear it.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1144", "start": 7323.91, "end": 7324.49, "text": "I made it really quick.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1145", "start": 7324.49, "end": 7328.063, "text": "No, I heard, but I was you know, I just thought you were going to add more to that.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1146", "start": 7328.208, "end": 7330.531, "text": "So, um, okay.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1147", "start": 7332.21, "end": 7336.991, "text": "Well, um, yeah, I think I'm, I'm feeling very conflicted about this.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1148", "start": 7337.072, "end": 7352.371, "text": "I definitely, um, agree with the intent here of, um, Councilor Murillo's amendment, and I'll— I will vote to pass it, um, because I think that it's something we should keep discussing, um, but it doesn't appear it will.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1149", "start": 7352.892, "end": 7369.995, "text": "Um, and so I think I guess I'm just unsure how I'm going to feel when it comes to council because I think there are some serious gaps that, um, Morillo one identified that I'm, you know, for the sake of the community, that those gaps, closing those gaps will help.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1150", "start": 7370.219, "end": 7372.35, "text": "Um, I'm very interested in discussing more.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1151", "start": 7372.479, "end": 7387.003, "text": "So yeah, I guess, um, and you know, if this does not, this amendment doesn't pass, then I would encourage Councilor Morillo to bring it I think it's important that we bring this back to full council so we can have a broader discussion, because I do think that other councilors might take interest in it.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1152", "start": 7387.131, "end": 7392.313, "text": "I think the discussion we're having is fruitful, and I think we're all— we all share a similar intent here.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1153", "start": 7393.163, "end": 7396.05, "text": "We just obviously feel like we can go about it a different way.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1154", "start": 7396.147, "end": 7399.531, "text": "So thank you, Councilor Murillo, for bringing that forward.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1155", "start": 7399.58, "end": 7418.856, "text": "I know it's difficult to propose such a big amendment, and, you know, the way that we've structured our work at council just makes for some of this disconnectedness, which is really frustrating for us because it's just like we got to work in committee and then committee's not enough and then we go to council and then people don't want to talk there.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1156", "start": 7418.92, "end": 7425.278, "text": "And it just feels like there's always a blocked door instead of an open door, and that makes policymaking hard.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1157", "start": 7425.359, "end": 7432.873, "text": "So I think that's just my general feeling about how this has gone, but I plan to support it and eager to see where the discussion goes at council.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1158", "start": 7433.114, "end": 7433.226, "text": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1159", "start": 7433.29, "end": 7433.387, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1160", "start": 7434.253, "end": 7435.023, "text": "Thank you, Councilors.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1161", "start": 7435.199, "end": 7440.476, "text": "Colleagues, I just want to note that we've had a significant amount of workshopping on this.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1162", "start": 7440.828, "end": 7443.218, "text": "We've had a significant amount of discussion.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1163", "start": 7444.196, "end": 7452.488, "text": "We are doing the work that we are supposed to do, and if this amendment fails, it's not because we've not had the discussion over it.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1164", "start": 7453.241, "end": 7476.372, "text": "I understand that there are concerns with the process of this body, and that's something that I think we can work but I hope that we don't continue to use committee as a platform to launch concerns without any work of the body to address them.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1165", "start": 7477.26, "end": 7485.525, "text": "I personally think that the process we have of committees and a full council vote is important, and I appreciate the conversation we've had today.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1166", "start": 7485.573, "end": 7485.751, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1167", "start": 7486.417, "end": 7511.555, "text": "Because it has aired for me an issue that I might be interested in us taking up in the future, a really important one that although I don't feel we have the experts in the room today to address, and although I hope we can move something forward today, whether the underlying or an amended version depending on how you all vote, that I think needs to be moved forward today.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1168", "start": 7514.16, "end": 7518.265, "text": "There's important conversation that has been had and issues identified.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1169", "start": 7520.52, "end": 7522.522, "text": "Wendy, could you please call the vote on Morillo 1?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1170", "start": 7524.7, "end": 7524.957, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1171", "start": 7525.022, "end": 7526.938, "text": "Yes, may I ask a procedural question?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1172", "start": 7527.389, "end": 7532.171, "text": "Morillo, did you intend to supersede Zimmerman 1, or is it inclusive of Zimmerman 1?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1173", "start": 7533.974, "end": 7534.319, "text": "I believe—.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1174", "start": 7534.549, "end": 7536.34, "text": "Didn't Zimmerman 1 pass first?", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1175", "start": 7536.438, "end": 7537.03, "text": "Yes.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1176", "start": 7537.177, "end": 7547.32, "text": "And so but if there's conflicts between the two, if your amendment is of the original ordinance, then yours would supersede Zimmerman 1.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1177", "start": 7547.705, "end": 7552.249, "text": "Otherwise, if you say it's inclusive of Zimmerman 1, then we'd reconcile those differences.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1178", "start": 7552.907, "end": 7553.1, "text": "Gotcha.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1179", "start": 7553.196, "end": 7566.892, "text": "So when they conform it, I believe the one conflict would be the definition of F. So are you intending to capture the other changes within Zimmerman 1 but supersede Zimmerman 1's F with your F?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1180", "start": 7568.241, "end": 7569.076, "text": "Yeah, that's fine with me.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1181", "start": 7570.49, "end": 7571.678, "text": "Thank you so much for clarifying.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1182", "start": 7573.155, "end": 7578.262, "text": "So motion to amend the ordinance 2026-308 as shown in Murillo 1.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1183", "start": 7578.857, "end": 7580.864, "text": "Murillo?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1184", "start": 7582.229, "end": 7590.805, "text": "I, I, and I believe I heard Mike say that he was interested in taking this back to his attorney, so I'll be sending the language to them for further discussion for full council.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1185", "start": 7592.764, "end": 7593.197, "text": "Zimmerman?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1186", "start": 7593.567, "end": 7593.775, "text": "No.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1187", "start": 7595.06, "end": 7595.445, "text": "Avalos?", "speaker": "Keelan McClymont" }, { "id": "cue-1188", "start": 7595.557, "end": 7595.702, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1189", "start": 7596.601, "end": 7596.874, "text": "Ryan?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1190", "start": 7597.243, "end": 7597.323, "text": "No.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1191", "start": 7597.869, "end": 7598.704, "text": "Pirtle-Guiney?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1192", "start": 7598.833, "end": 7599.154, "text": "No.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1193", "start": 7600.518, "end": 7608.064, "text": "The amendment— oh, sorry, uh, fails with, uh, 2 aye votes and 3 nay votes.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1194", "start": 7608.337, "end": 7617.231, "text": "Okay, colleagues, that moves us back to discussion on the underlying, which I think we have pretty substantially discussed in discussing the amendment, so I'm hoping we can move to a vote there.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1195", "start": 7617.457, "end": 7619.666, "text": "Pretty quickly so we can move to a break.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1196", "start": 7619.99, "end": 7620.429, "text": "Zimmerman.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1197", "start": 7620.965, "end": 7621.419, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1198", "start": 7621.679, "end": 7625.317, "text": "I— the reason I got in quickly was I do think we've had largely the discussion.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1199", "start": 7625.447, "end": 7630.579, "text": "I want to lift up what is, I think, going to be a good action today.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1200", "start": 7630.837, "end": 7632.354, "text": "I hope that this has support.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1201", "start": 7632.76, "end": 7639.939, "text": "I think that a discussion on an amendment is a worthwhile endeavor almost all the time, and we have done that now for a couple of hours.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1202", "start": 7641.016, "end": 7674.879, "text": "And I don't want that tone to override what I think is an incredibly positive step for the City of Portland, for the consumers of Portland, for every shopper in Portland and setting an example for other states, for other cities, for this, for our state, because the exploitation of one's personal data as technology makes that easier and easier, as we know that there are companies who are pitching retailers of all types that they can come in and tell a retailer, we'll tell you more about your consumer than you could ever know and you can set prices based upon that.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1203", "start": 7675.386, "end": 7682.953, "text": "I think us saying no thank you to that and setting a clear example and a clear way of doing business in Portland is the right step.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1204", "start": 7683.001, "end": 7686.64, "text": "So I want to appreciate everybody who's helped us work on this.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1205", "start": 7686.784, "end": 7693.949, "text": "I want to appreciate my team in particular who helped us go through the eaches and for a healthy conversation.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1206", "start": 7695.04, "end": 7701.259, "text": "And I look forward to defending this at City Council so that we can protect Portland consumers.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1207", "start": 7702.657, "end": 7703.155, "text": "Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1208", "start": 7703.461, "end": 7704.425, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1209", "start": 7704.73, "end": 7705.389, "text": "Councilor Morillo.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1210", "start": 7706.498, "end": 7706.931, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1211", "start": 7708.265, "end": 7715.303, "text": "With regards to process, I do have to address that we had a brief presentation last committee, not really any time for discussion.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1212", "start": 7715.512, "end": 7717.489, "text": "This was our big discussion committee hearing.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1213", "start": 7718.565, "end": 7730.128, "text": "We have had 2 hours to discuss antitrust law, which is one of the most complicated areas of law, frankly, because we're talking about technology, and we're talking about a very complicated legal area.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1214", "start": 7730.754, "end": 7736.19, "text": "And you guys made the algorithmic price fixing ban go through committee 3 separate times.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1215", "start": 7736.607, "end": 7741.979, "text": "I had to return it back once because, again, very complicated legal area and we had to protect the city for it.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1216", "start": 7742.476, "end": 7751.905, "text": "I heard from Mike Salvaggio up there that he was interested in the amendment and wanted to bring it back to his attorneys and that they needed to review a potential option.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1217", "start": 7752.338, "end": 7755.016, "text": "So to me, that is not that is not sitting with the amendments.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1218", "start": 7755.128, "end": 7757.436, "text": "That is not processing any of the language.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1219", "start": 7758.35, "end": 7760.834, "text": "But we're just moving it out of committee as I thought we would.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1220", "start": 7760.978, "end": 7761.363, "text": "That's fine.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1221", "start": 7762.1, "end": 7769.521, "text": "What this ordinance leaves on the table is essentially creating a policy that is the same sticker with different discounts.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1222", "start": 7770.627, "end": 7776.67, "text": "So to a consumer, this is how Kroger, Instacart, and DoorDash actually do it.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1223", "start": 7777.183, "end": 7778.353, "text": "There are different fees.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1224", "start": 7778.449, "end": 7791.854, "text": "Premium fees are carved out of the retail price and a personalized mandatory the ban says that a specific consumer account or device, not a group.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1225", "start": 7793.075, "end": 7793.974, "text": "Pricing tests.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1226", "start": 7794.825, "end": 7807.226, "text": "And, and just like a lot of other holes that are in this policy, so anything the city can't see because there are no records, there's no private suit, $1,000 total for a first offense and nothing if the company stops within 45 days.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1227", "start": 7807.29, "end": 7807.386, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1228", "start": 7807.451, "end": 7807.579, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1229", "start": 7808.559, "end": 7829.025, "text": "So if we are trying to signal to the legislature that we are serious about banning surveillance pricing at the city level, unfortunately what we are signaling by moving this forward today without any changes is that we are okay with moving forward a more symbolic policy that does not actually remove the loopholes that would actually stop this.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1230", "start": 7830.086, "end": 7834.776, "text": "And I'm really sad about this because I think it's a really cool idea and a really important issue.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1231", "start": 7834.825, "end": 7834.969, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1232", "start": 7836.366, "end": 7847.14, "text": "But because of that, I had to explain myself pretty strongly to the public who's watching this because I will be voting no and I don't want it to be misconstrued why I can't support this today.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1233", "start": 7847.59, "end": 7847.927, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1234", "start": 7848.152, "end": 7850.624, "text": "Thank you, Councilor Morillo.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1235", "start": 7850.673, "end": 7853.932, "text": "Seeing no one else in the queue, Wendy, could you please call the roll?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1236", "start": 7854.992, "end": 7855.184, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1237", "start": 7855.233, "end": 7856.052, "text": "May I have a motion?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1238", "start": 7856.694, "end": 7857.288, "text": "Second?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1239", "start": 7857.866, "end": 7861.759, "text": "I believe— Didn't we—.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1240", "start": 7861.759, "end": 7863.279, "text": "I'll move it for adoption of the full council.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1241", "start": 7863.328, "end": 7867.113, "text": "Had a motion and a second from Zimmerman and Ryan.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1242", "start": 7868.892, "end": 7869.927, "text": "I think that was the amendment.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1243", "start": 7870.008, "end": 7870.913, "text": "Thank you so much.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1244", "start": 7871.075, "end": 7872.094, "text": "Oh, I apologize.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1245", "start": 7872.191, "end": 7872.919, "text": "That was Zimmerman 1.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1246", "start": 7873.177, "end": 7873.501, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1247", "start": 7874.632, "end": 7875.115, "text": "Morillo?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1248", "start": 7876.548, "end": 7877.354, "text": "Regretfully, no.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1249", "start": 7878.239, "end": 7878.706, "text": "Zimmerman?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1250", "start": 7878.964, "end": 7879.012, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1251", "start": 7880.091, "end": 7880.477, "text": "Avalos?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1252", "start": 7886.847, "end": 7888.946, "text": "Yeah, I feel conflicted about this vote.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1253", "start": 7889.25, "end": 7896.653, "text": "Um, I feel unsatisfied by where we're landing and feel there are some important gaps.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1254", "start": 7897.422, "end": 7901.044, "text": "Um, my vote is symbolic because it's going to pass out.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1255", "start": 7901.188, "end": 7905.546, "text": "I'm going to vote yes, but, uh, I reserve the right to reach out.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1256", "start": 7905.626, "end": 7911.667, "text": "I want to talk to the stakeholders and see how we can improve it, um, as it's on its way to council.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1257", "start": 7911.715, "end": 7918.333, "text": "So I'll vote yes now, but Ryan?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1258", "start": 7918.628, "end": 7918.644, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1259", "start": 7919.33, "end": 7919.755, "text": "Pirtle-Guiney?", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1260", "start": 7921.349, "end": 7921.365, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1261", "start": 7921.823, "end": 7926.003, "text": "The motion to refer is— the ordinance as amended is approved.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1262", "start": 7928.27, "end": 7930.577, "text": "Okay, colleagues, we are going to take a 10-minute break.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1263", "start": 7930.625, "end": 7932.4, "text": "We have 2 items left on the agenda.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1264", "start": 7932.497, "end": 7940.529, "text": "I will be talking to our colleagues during that break to figure out how much time they need and if we may need to move one of these items when we get back.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1265", "start": 7940.66, "end": 7949.451, "text": "I will make I just want to make a quick announcement about what we're still moving forward with today so that anybody here for either agenda item 5 or 6 has as much notice as possible.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1266", "start": 7949.887, "end": 7951.786, "text": "Please be back here at 4:17.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1267", "start": 7959.272, "end": 7959.994, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1268", "start": 8613.88, "end": 8620.244, "text": "Thank you all for being back.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1269", "start": 8620.885, "end": 8627.666, "text": "We are going to go ahead and reconvene.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1270", "start": 8628.644, "end": 8646.473, "text": "Um, Councilor Zimmerman believes we can get through the next item which his office brought forward quite quickly, so we are going to move ahead assuming that we will complete agenda item So I'd ask that everybody who is here for both of those items stay.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1271", "start": 8647.659, "end": 8649.953, "text": "Wendy, could you please open agenda item 4 for us?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1272", "start": 8650.963, "end": 8653.047, "text": "I'm sorry, we renumbered 5 and 6.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1273", "start": 8653.176, "end": 8653.961, "text": "Agenda item 5.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1274", "start": 8654.234, "end": 8654.956, "text": "Yes, thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1275", "start": 8655.036, "end": 8661.001, "text": "Item number 5, document number 2026-286, Protect Portland Firefighters from Job-Related Risks.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1276", "start": 8661.995, "end": 8662.252, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1277", "start": 8662.476, "end": 8665.699, "text": "And this again comes from Councilor Zimmerman's office.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1278", "start": 8665.763, "end": 8666.661, "text": "Councilor Zimmerman, would you like to introduce the item?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1279", "start": 8666.822, "end": 8669.868, "text": "To introduce this item before we hear from our fire chief.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1280", "start": 8670.269, "end": 8670.814, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1281", "start": 8671.135, "end": 8679.087, "text": "I'd like to just open this item by noting that occupational cancer is the number one killer of firefighters in the United States.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1282", "start": 8679.793, "end": 8687.425, "text": "Firefighters are nearly 10% more likely to develop cancer and almost 15% more likely to die from cancer than the general public.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1283", "start": 8688.306, "end": 8695.489, "text": "PFAS chemicals have historically been added to protective gear to serve as a critical moisture barrier.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1284", "start": 8696.243, "end": 8704.995, "text": "While advances in material science have been made and the amount of PFAS reduced, protective gear remains a source of carcinogenic exposure.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1285", "start": 8705.765, "end": 8713.732, "text": "Portland firefighters need gear that shields against hazards encountered on the job and not gear that adds to a known cancer risk.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1286", "start": 8714.437, "end": 8719.743, "text": "Unfortunately, PFAS-free fire turnouts are not yet commercially viable.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1287", "start": 8720.192, "end": 8742.459, "text": "However, to ensure that there is a quick transition once there is a viable option, I'm seeking to establish the PFAS Replacement subfund within the Portland Fire and— excuse me, Fire and Rescue Fire Capital Fund, so we can offset large one-time costs outside of the normal 5-year cycle of turnout replacement for Portland Fire.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1288", "start": 8744.15, "end": 8751.763, "text": "With that, I wanted to invite our chief to present to us and describe a little bit more about the problem we're solving and what we'd hope to achieve.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1289", "start": 8751.893, "end": 8754.307, "text": "So thank you, colleagues, and Chief Johnson.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1290", "start": 8757.842, "end": 8759.892, "text": "For the opportunity to be here with you today.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1291", "start": 8760.167, "end": 8762.169, "text": "For the record, I'm Lauren Johnson, the Fire Chief.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1292", "start": 8762.778, "end": 8772.233, "text": "I want to thank Councilor Zimmerman for your advocacy and to let you all know that this resolution aligns with Portland's core values.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1293", "start": 8772.894, "end": 8790.677, "text": "I'll give more specific details about PFAS in the remainder of the presentation, but I wanted to highlight that committing to a change that improves firefighter health and safety and moves toward more sustainable, environmentally friendly product is fiscally responsible, collaborative, and simply the right thing to do.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1294", "start": 8791.271, "end": 8792.184, "text": "Next slide, please.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1295", "start": 8793.595, "end": 8798.117, "text": "So I'll start by sharing a broad overview of PFAS and how they're impacting firefighters.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1296", "start": 8799.015, "end": 8802.206, "text": "PFAS are a large group of human-made chemicals.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1297", "start": 8802.639, "end": 8808.347, "text": "By some definitions, there are more than 3,000 different types, and they've been around since the mid-20th century.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1298", "start": 8808.395, "end": 8808.507, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1299", "start": 8809.197, "end": 8812.633, "text": "They're commonly used on products that we all encounter in daily life.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1300", "start": 8813.387, "end": 8816.807, "text": "They're used as waterproofing and stain protection coatings.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1301", "start": 8817.321, "end": 8823.886, "text": "They're sometimes referred to as forever chemicals because they don't readily break down in the environment or in the human body.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1302", "start": 8824.705, "end": 8835.429, "text": "And because they've been so widely used for so long, we encounter them everywhere from the goods on our grocery store shelves to the products that we use and we wear and in the soil and in our water.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1303", "start": 8837.146, "end": 8841.593, "text": "And unfortunately, we know that firefighters have had additional routes of PFAS exposure.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1304", "start": 8842.106, "end": 8852.202, "text": "Firefighting foam is a product that we spray through hoses to help extinguish fires, and the foam used by most fire departments across the country has historically contained PFAS.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1305", "start": 8852.957, "end": 8857.916, "text": "Recently, manufacturing requirements has removed PFAS from the foam.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1306", "start": 8858.253, "end": 8863.919, "text": "That's been phased out, but it's been for a long time a primary source of groundwater contamination.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1307", "start": 8865.155, "end": 8871.058, "text": "And current firefighters and retirees have been exposed to a significant amount just in the course of our daily duties.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1308", "start": 8872.39, "end": 8875.631, "text": "Some occupational exposures are not currently preventable.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1309", "start": 8876.128, "end": 8879.481, "text": "They occur during fire and other hazardous materials emergencies.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1310", "start": 8879.754, "end": 8885.241, "text": "And so during and after these active fire responses, we make every effort to mitigate these hazards.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1311", "start": 8885.289, "end": 8888.032, "text": "And I'll explain a little bit more about that in the next few slides.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1312", "start": 8888.979, "end": 8901.032, "text": "And finally, PFAS like Councilor mentioned, has been historically present in the turnout gear that we wear, and this is because it is a durable water repellent that's applied to the outer shell and the inner layers of firefighting gear.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1313", "start": 8901.192, "end": 8914.385, "text": "And as you can imagine, it's critical that we provide turnout gear that can let firefighters' body heat and sweat move away from our skin, but does not let in superheated water and moisture or contaminants like blood and chemicals.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1314", "start": 8915.075, "end": 8915.541, "text": "Next slide, please.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1315", "start": 8915.798, "end": 8928.646, "text": "So these slides have given you an idea of the challenge that we face when it comes to balancing firefighter health and wellness against the dangers associated with meeting our mission of extinguishing fires and preserving life and property.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1316", "start": 8929.864, "end": 8940.967, "text": "Councilor Zimmerman's resolution notes that the startling fact that firefighting has been categorized by the International Agency for Research on Cancer as a Group 1 carcinogen.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1317", "start": 8941.399, "end": 8945.869, "text": "So that's the highest risk category, and it's the same category that tobacco smoke is in.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1318", "start": 8945.949, "end": 8945.997, "text": "Wow.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1319", "start": 8947.425, "end": 8955.06, "text": "Firefighter cancer rates have been increasing throughout my career, and fire departments are making big efforts to mitigate the hazards of occupational exposure.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1320", "start": 8955.685, "end": 8961.877, "text": "These efforts include cleaning our apparatus and gear after every fire and wearing our breathing apparatus for much longer.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1321", "start": 8962.743, "end": 8970.972, "text": "And they also include doing everything we can to encourage manufacturers to make changes to, to the chemical composition of the tools and the equipment that we use.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1322", "start": 8971.565, "end": 8974.019, "text": "And the change in firefighting foam is one example of this.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1323", "start": 8974.519, "end": 8976.489, "text": "Next slide, please.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1324", "start": 8980.356, "end": 8991.041, "text": "Another manufacturing change that firefighters are advocating for and that this resolution supports is to completely remove PFAS from all layers of turnout gear.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1325", "start": 8991.914, "end": 9001.358, "text": "The waterproofing properties of certain PFAS currently play an important role in protecting firefighters from contaminants, especially petroleum products and bloodborne pathogens.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1326", "start": 9002.215, "end": 9010.706, "text": "And there's also certain types of PFAS that can withstand exposure to harsh chemicals and temperatures and must be superheated before they begin to degrade or off-gas.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1327", "start": 9011.545, "end": 9020.408, "text": "So as you can understand, these qualities meet a really specific need for firefighter protective gear, and that also explains why it's so hard to find a suitable replacement.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1328", "start": 9021.547, "end": 9022.159, "text": "Next slide, please.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1329", "start": 9023.68, "end": 9023.959, "text": "Maybe.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1330", "start": 9027.967, "end": 9028.849, "text": "There we go.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1331", "start": 9029.731, "end": 9037.473, "text": "So it's important for you to know that we're in the best type of protective gear, the best suited gear for us in our working environment right now.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1332", "start": 9038.243, "end": 9048.855, "text": "And that really means that we assess that— what we do is we take the types of risks and conditions that we're exposed to, and then we choose appropriately matched levels of protection when it comes to turnout gear.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1333", "start": 9049.865, "end": 9063.7, "text": "We know that our current turnout gear contains PFAS in one layer, It's completely encapsulated, and when this particular setup of bunker gear is studied, we do not see firefighters becoming contaminated with that type of PFAS.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1334", "start": 9064.694, "end": 9072.405, "text": "However, we still maintain the importance of keeping good hygiene practices in place so that the gear and our members get clean after each fire.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1335", "start": 9073.671, "end": 9084.587, "text": "And you can see here on this slide that the professional unions, both of firefighters and fire chiefs, have formally called for turnout gear manufacturers to develop gear that's completely free of PFAS.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1336", "start": 9085.508, "end": 9092.686, "text": "And so we're watching as the textile advancements take place so that we can be ready to buy a new product once safety and performance standards are proven.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1337", "start": 9093.979, "end": 9094.69, "text": "Next slide, please.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1338", "start": 9099.29, "end": 9101.733, "text": "Oh, goodness.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1339", "start": 9101.846, "end": 9104.516, "text": "It's like we've got a gremlin in the slides.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1340", "start": 9104.921, "end": 9105.795, "text": "So there we go.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1341", "start": 9106.021, "end": 9106.329, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1342", "start": 9107.361, "end": 9110.524, "text": "This slide describes our current cost and replacement schedule.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1343", "start": 9110.572, "end": 9119.018, "text": "So each set of turnout gear is approximately $4,500 in today's dollars, and we usually buy about 175 sets each year.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1344", "start": 9119.853, "end": 9130.033, "text": "There is a mandatory retirement of all turnout gear 10 years after the date of manufacture, and with our rates of wear and tear, we usually get about 7 to 8 years out of a set.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1345", "start": 9130.948, "end": 9137.499, "text": "Portland has accounted for and planned for these purchases a few different ways, but what's relevant for today's conversation is the idea of the substation.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1346", "start": 9137.547, "end": 9137.595, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1347", "start": 9138.86, "end": 9149.67, "text": "The resolution that's before you establishes a PFAS replacement subfund that would allow general fund underspend to be saved in preparation for a wholesale transition to PFAS-free gear.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1348", "start": 9150.616, "end": 9151.48, "text": "Next slide, please.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1349", "start": 9155.48, "end": 9163.679, "text": "So I appreciate the work that the councilor's office did to carefully craft this resolution so that it does provide for a responsible path forward.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1350", "start": 9164.366, "end": 9172.908, "text": "We're committed to giving the city administrator annual updates on the timeline, challenges, and projected costs for the transitioning to PFAS-free gear.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1351", "start": 9174.061, "end": 9180.263, "text": "And we've emphasized that there's not currently enough data to show that there's a suitable alternative for Portland Fire to change into.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1352", "start": 9181.112, "end": 9189.765, "text": "We want to be sure to avoid what's known as a regrettable substitution, which is when a hazardous substance is replaced with another that is equally or even more harmful.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1353", "start": 9190.423, "end": 9194.879, "text": "And that usually happens because of an incomplete hazard analysis or regulatory gaps.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1354", "start": 9195.231, "end": 9199.175, "text": "An example that many of you may remember is with BPA replacements.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1355", "start": 9199.383, "end": 9213.601, "text": "So when this move happened, bisphenol A was replaced with bisphenol S and bisphenol F, and then the science showed that those alternatives really had similar health hazards compared to the original substance that they had replaced.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1356", "start": 9214.066, "end": 9222.38, "text": "So obviously a premature move like that would damage trust be expensive to overcome, and could result in worse safety outcomes for firefighters.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1357", "start": 9223.6, "end": 9236.755, "text": "And that leads me to the last point on this slide, which is that I believe this resolution has the right balance of direction and patience so that Portland Fire is prepared to transition when PFAS-free gear is proven and readily available.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1358", "start": 9238.056, "end": 9241.332, "text": "And if it'll give it to us, how about the next slide?", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1359", "start": 9242.328, "end": 9242.826, "text": "There we go.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1360", "start": 9243.051, "end": 9243.179, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1361", "start": 9243.388, "end": 9246.311, "text": "Okay, so I want to close by summarizing what this resolution does.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1362", "start": 9247.05, "end": 9250.247, "text": "It affirms your support for Portland firefighters' health and safety.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1363", "start": 9250.921, "end": 9255.852, "text": "It directs us to monitor the science and changes associated with PFAS-free turnout gear.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1364", "start": 9256.72, "end": 9261.49, "text": "It requires a change to PFAS-free gear once it's proven to be safe and effective.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1365", "start": 9262.165, "end": 9268.846, "text": "And it establishes the subfund to help spread the costs of this transition out over several years, provided that there is underspend.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1366", "start": 9268.895, "end": 9269.007, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1367", "start": 9269.953, "end": 9277.314, "text": "And finally, it has an accountability piece built in where annual reporting is required from the bureau to the CA and then from the CA to council.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1368", "start": 9278.068, "end": 9278.902, "text": "Next slide, please.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1369", "start": 9280.233, "end": 9281.933, "text": "So that's the last slide for me.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1370", "start": 9282.543, "end": 9285.59, "text": "And I want to thank you all for your service here on the committee.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1371", "start": 9285.67, "end": 9294.923, "text": "I don't usually get, get to see this particular group, but thank you for that and your service to council overall, but also specifically for calling attention to firefighter health.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1372", "start": 9296.34, "end": 9302.76, "text": "Thank you, Chief.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1373", "start": 9302.76, "end": 9304.79, "text": "Councilor Zimmerman, did you have anything to close with?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1374", "start": 9304.82, "end": 9307.12, "text": "Thanks, Chief, for spending your time with us.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1375", "start": 9307.12, "end": 9310, "text": "You're a very busy person, so I appreciate it.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1376", "start": 9310, "end": 9321.02, "text": "Colleagues, what we're really seeing here is the department has, once this technology becomes available, the ability to make those regular new purchases each year, and that's going to save us a lot of money.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1377", "start": 9321.162, "end": 9323.088, "text": "Each year or so as things expire.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1378", "start": 9323.328, "end": 9340.784, "text": "What we're really talking about is, can we carve out the ability for them to make a larger purchase so that it's, uh, when that, when that technology is available and the garments are ready, so that we're not in a 5 to 7 year cycle of waiting before everybody in the department has a new set of turnouts?", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1379", "start": 9340.88, "end": 9346.095, "text": "And so that's really the meat of what we're talking about, and it comes from savings within their own department year over year.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1380", "start": 9346.175, "end": 9349.798, "text": "And So I appreciate your entertaining of this resolution.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1381", "start": 9350.154, "end": 9351.837, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1382", "start": 9352.662, "end": 9354.296, "text": "Wendy, do we have anybody signed up to testify?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1383", "start": 9356.06, "end": 9356.88, "text": "No, we don't have anyone.", "speaker": "Keelan McClymont" }, { "id": "cue-1384", "start": 9357.073, "end": 9359.584, "text": "Okay, then let's move right into discussion.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1385", "start": 9359.632, "end": 9360.453, "text": "Councilor Avalos?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1386", "start": 9360.919, "end": 9364.653, "text": "Yeah, thank you so much for your presentation.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1387", "start": 9366.781, "end": 9368.628, "text": "Just a couple of logistical questions.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1388", "start": 9368.726, "end": 9375.919, "text": "So as it relates to the amount of the future transition.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1389", "start": 9376.514, "end": 9385.482, "text": "Do we have a range for what a wholesale transition could ultimately cost compared to the roughly $787K that we're already spending annually on replacement gear?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1390", "start": 9385.935, "end": 9391.329, "text": "Yeah, I can— I'm awful at math, but I can do that calculation.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1391", "start": 9393.356, "end": 9403.34, "text": "It would, in today's dollars, if we did 4,500 by 700 firefighters, That's what we would get for a total for everybody to get into one set.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1392", "start": 9404.215, "end": 9406.906, "text": "We actually have 2 sets just for logistics.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1393", "start": 9407.543, "end": 9415.706, "text": "Once they wear their A set and it becomes dirty because of an exposure, they swap into a B set while the A set gets washed.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1394", "start": 9420.487, "end": 9432.703, "text": "And then this is a— since this is a resolution, so this is about telling the— I guess help me understand the part about like setting aside money, you know, general fund underspend.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1395", "start": 9433.249, "end": 9440.753, "text": "Is it that we're telling the mayor that as he prepares the first budget that, you know, if there's underspend that we're putting it into a pot?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1396", "start": 9440.817, "end": 9442.552, "text": "Like, just help me understand the logistics of that.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1397", "start": 9442.889, "end": 9444.673, "text": "Yeah, uh, great.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1398", "start": 9444.898, "end": 9451.485, "text": "It's essentially— it's establishing, or, or I guess it's a resolution asking and directing the administration to establish the fund.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1399", "start": 9452.249, "end": 9461.172, "text": "And like a lot of financial policies, things like we use 50% of our one-time on capital, or we use it— this is essentially one of those types of policies.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1400", "start": 9461.688, "end": 9475.676, "text": "And so our— I would say if the council passes this, the goal would be that we would see a budget crafted by the administration that recognizes this resolution and it recognizes the—.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1401", "start": 9475.676, "end": 9476.636, "text": "The need.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1402", "start": 9477.497, "end": 9488.929, "text": "Year-end savings or underspend of the, of the bureau and frontloads that into this subfund, keeping those what were fire funds, keeping them in fire, but just for use at a later date.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1403", "start": 9489.475, "end": 9493.265, "text": "Is that something, I guess, like, that's binding to us?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1404", "start": 9493.409, "end": 9501.791, "text": "Like, would we look at that and say— because all, all bureaus have underspend to some extent, and that all kind of just is color money and it gets put random places.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1405", "start": 9501.839, "end": 9504.344, "text": "I guess I'm trying to understand how's it going to show up to us?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1406", "start": 9504.392, "end": 9505.628, "text": "Like, is it on the mayor's level?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1407", "start": 9505.676, "end": 9506.479, "text": "Is it on our level?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1408", "start": 9506.559, "end": 9514.411, "text": "Do we need to take a certain action based on this resolution in the next budget that says we've already agreed that this money can't be put towards other things?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1409", "start": 9515.085, "end": 9527.899, "text": "I think it's more of a signaling of a set of priorities and values than it is a hard and fast— we can always, as the Budget Committee, I believe the Budget Committee can always say we're choosing to not follow that resolution that we passed for these reasons.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1410", "start": 9528.653, "end": 9533.583, "text": "But it allows us to signal where we, where we can and where we do want it to go.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1411", "start": 9534.113, "end": 9536.039, "text": "It's not interrupting the budget cycle.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1412", "start": 9536.264, "end": 9544.517, "text": "It is just creating a place that if this council wants to signal and set aside money, that it can in the, in the upcoming budgets process.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1413", "start": 9545.047, "end": 9545.85, "text": "Okay.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1414", "start": 9546.717, "end": 9553.316, "text": "And then, um, Chief, you had mentioned, uh, the cost of $4,500, right, for the equipment.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1415", "start": 9553.364, "end": 9554.842, "text": "I guess maybe I was getting confused.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1416", "start": 9555.132, "end": 9561.494, "text": "Is the alternative or the thing that we're working towards already available, we just can't afford it, or it hasn't been created yet?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1417", "start": 9562.201, "end": 9563.438, "text": "So it's a little bit of both.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1418", "start": 9563.518, "end": 9568.162, "text": "There is one manufacturer that claims to be completely PFAS-free.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1419", "start": 9568.676, "end": 9574.621, "text": "So in the industry, we're looking for more testing that's third-party testing to verify.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1420", "start": 9574.83, "end": 9580.035, "text": "And I would just say the market isn't there yet, so there's no competition for that.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1421", "start": 9580.452, "end": 9584.897, "text": "Particular set of turnout gear that's marketed as PFAS-free.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1422", "start": 9585.506, "end": 9592.742, "text": "So we really need that to evolve a little bit more to make sure— what we have seen, the outer— so there's 3 layers to the garment.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1423", "start": 9592.806, "end": 9595.55, "text": "The outer shell used to have PFAS-free.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1424", "start": 9595.614, "end": 9598.149, "text": "That's where we needed most of the water shedding to happen.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1425", "start": 9598.582, "end": 9602.529, "text": "And all manufacturers have gotten rid of PFAS in that outer shell.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1426", "start": 9602.673, "end": 9606.812, "text": "And what we're seeing is a faster wear and tear because you don't have the same protection.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1427", "start": 9607.631, "end": 9618.211, "text": "And for firefighters, what that translates to is more heat coming through, a greater rate of burns, a shorter life of that garment that should last 10 years.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1428", "start": 9618.307, "end": 9619.881, "text": "Maybe it only lasts 5 now.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1429", "start": 9620.426, "end": 9624.826, "text": "So we need that technology to improve before it's the right choice for Portland.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1430", "start": 9625.549, "end": 9625.805, "text": "I see.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1431", "start": 9626.271, "end": 9631.746, "text": "And then, so are you saying, I guess, where's that trigger of like when we decide the technology is good?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1432", "start": 9631.811, "end": 9633.689, "text": "Like, is that something you're going to make a call on?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1433", "start": 9633.737, "end": 9643.658, "text": "Is it that— and what if If the market does not produce more alternatives, like, is there going to be a point where we say we can't keep waiting for the market to produce new things, so we're going to go with this current thing?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1434", "start": 9644.33, "end": 9646.901, "text": "So I, I would say I'm not sure.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1435", "start": 9647.095, "end": 9652.498, "text": "I think that it's important for us to report every year to the CA kind of what the status of the market is.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1436", "start": 9653.443, "end": 9658.318, "text": "I do want to be clear that the gear that we're in right now, we don't have concerns, is shedding.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1437", "start": 9658.511, "end": 9661.154, "text": "We do believe that that PFAS is thank you.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1438", "start": 9661.446, "end": 9673.648, "text": "I think the concern is safe and as it's contained, but long-term, right, I think as a city we have concerns about wanting to make sure that we support purchases that are more environmentally friendly.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1439", "start": 9673.762, "end": 9678.528, "text": "And so I think you're going to see the city and state largely moving away from PFAS.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1440", "start": 9679.125, "end": 9681.127, "text": "So that could force a change, right?", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1441", "start": 9681.288, "end": 9682.725, "text": "We saw that happen in California.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1442", "start": 9683.82, "end": 9693.338, "text": "But what I would like in terms of maintaining you know, a pretty high standard for firefighter safety is that we continue to report to you guys, here's how the market's changing.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1443", "start": 9693.853, "end": 9705.213, "text": "And once you see other fire departments that are similar to Portland making this move, and we watch those wear test trials so that we know how it's impacting their fires, then we'll be ready to pull the trigger.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1444", "start": 9706.048, "end": 9715.393, "text": "And I think just to speak to the sub fund place, you know, normally we would have to turn any savings any savings over, right?", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1445", "start": 9715.457, "end": 9717.413, "text": "We don't get to carry that year over year.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1446", "start": 9717.782, "end": 9731.296, "text": "One thing that this could really help us with is if we know that that suitable alternative is on the horizon, we might hold back a year or 2 from purchasing the regular amount of sets that we need, we usually do.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1447", "start": 9731.472, "end": 9744.127, "text": "We might say instead of the 175, let's only buy 100 because we really think this is just around the corner and that's where we can wonderful.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1448", "start": 9744.223, "end": 9744.48, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1449", "start": 9744.609, "end": 9744.802, "text": "That's all.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1450", "start": 9745.043, "end": 9745.429, "text": "Yes, ma'am.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1451", "start": 9746.537, "end": 9747.116, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1452", "start": 9747.276, "end": 9749.365, "text": "Councilor Morillo.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1453", "start": 9749.59, "end": 9751.39, "text": "Thank you so much for being here to present on this.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1454", "start": 9751.519, "end": 9753.786, "text": "This seems like a pretty simple yes to me.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1455", "start": 9754.495, "end": 9758.151, "text": "You know, it's very common sense that we should protect our firefighters from PFAS.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1456", "start": 9759.02, "end": 9773.145, "text": "My understanding of the policy, just for clarity, based on some of Councilor Avalos's questions, is that this is a little bit more signaling intent for the future because it doesn't necessarily do anything or hold us to anything today since the technology isn't available.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1457", "start": 9773.194, "end": 9776.21, "text": "So this is just saying this is something we want to do if we can.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1458", "start": 9777.085, "end": 9778.577, "text": "So it seems like an easy yes.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1459", "start": 9779.06, "end": 9779.256, "text": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1460", "start": 9779.42, "end": 9779.765, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1461", "start": 9781.208, "end": 9782.356, "text": "Thank you, Councilor Morillo.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1462", "start": 9783.8, "end": 9808.951, "text": "Councilor Zimmerman, I'm looking out and we don't have anybody from our finance office here today, But when this comes forward to council, if it passes out of committee today, can you make sure that we have some information about what other financial policies we have that this would— I hate to say come into conflict with, but what are other things where we say underspend should go to X?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1463", "start": 9809.048, "end": 9810.9, "text": "Because I know we have a few policies like that.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1464", "start": 9811.624, "end": 9818.971, "text": "This seems like a no-brainer to support to me, but I do think the context is important of understanding what else we've said that about as we move it forward.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1465", "start": 9819.275, "end": 9819.596, "text": "Will do.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1466", "start": 9819.98, "end": 9821.038, "text": "Thank you, I appreciate that.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1467", "start": 9821.198, "end": 9821.807, "text": "Councilor Ryan?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1468", "start": 9821.999, "end": 9825.075, "text": "Yes, thank you, Chair, and thank you, Councilor Zimmerman and Chief Johnson.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1469", "start": 9825.123, "end": 9825.909, "text": "It's good to see you.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1470", "start": 9826.085, "end": 9826.341, "text": "You too.", "speaker": "Lauren Johnson" }, { "id": "cue-1471", "start": 9826.405, "end": 9831.1, "text": "And, uh, I just want to say this is a, a very proactive day for you, Councilor Zimmerman.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1472", "start": 9831.292, "end": 9834.353, "text": "You're, um, making sure that we're on ahead of the curve.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1473", "start": 9834.881, "end": 9838.615, "text": "And this, um, I also want to thank you for educating the public on this topic.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1474", "start": 9839.288, "end": 9853.822, "text": "Um, coming here does that, and I know that you're in complete agreement and alignment with labor So it's kind of the second item in a row where we've had management and labor come together, which is always a good sign that we're probably supposed to move something along.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1475", "start": 9854.321, "end": 9855.56, "text": "And thank you so much.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1476", "start": 9855.705, "end": 9858.088, "text": "I learned a lot, and I'm excited to move this along.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1477", "start": 9858.426, "end": 9858.925, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Michael Salvaggio" }, { "id": "cue-1478", "start": 9860.616, "end": 9861.341, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1479", "start": 9861.486, "end": 9867.168, "text": "Colleagues, seeing no one else in the queue, Chief, thank you so much for being here and for all of the information.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1480", "start": 9868.692, "end": 9873.193, "text": "And, um, I move to move the resolution to I move before City Council with recommendation for full adoption.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1481", "start": 9873.435, "end": 9873.823, "text": "Second.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1482", "start": 9874.242, "end": 9876.808, "text": "Okay, Wendy, could you please call the roll?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1483", "start": 9878.07, "end": 9878.279, "text": "Morillo.", "speaker": "Keelan McClymont" }, { "id": "cue-1484", "start": 9879.779, "end": 9879.811, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1485", "start": 9880.94, "end": 9881.455, "text": "Zimmerman.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1486", "start": 9881.794, "end": 9881.875, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1487", "start": 9882.681, "end": 9883.068, "text": "Avalos.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1488", "start": 9883.342, "end": 9883.374, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1489", "start": 9884.148, "end": 9884.422, "text": "Ryan.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1490", "start": 9884.858, "end": 9884.906, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1491", "start": 9885.89, "end": 9886.698, "text": "Pirtle-Guiney.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1492", "start": 9887.134, "end": 9887.28, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1493", "start": 9888.266, "end": 9889.285, "text": "The motion is approved.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1494", "start": 9889.495, "end": 9894.652, "text": "Great, that moves us to our last item on the agenda.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1495", "start": 9894.814, "end": 9902.503, "text": "I would like us to start this item, get through the presentation, and if we can get to a vote, fantastic, but if not, we will At least have begun the work.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1496", "start": 9902.552, "end": 9904.474, "text": "I know we have a few guests here today for it.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1497", "start": 9905.158, "end": 9907.031, "text": "Wendy, could you please call agenda item 6?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1498", "start": 9908.43, "end": 9908.709, "text": "Yes, thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1499", "start": 9908.791, "end": 9917.996, "text": "Item number 6, document number 2026-309, support the preservation of court access to protect taxpayers from extreme weather costs.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1500", "start": 9919.65, "end": 9923.077, "text": "Okay, Councilor Novick, thank you for your patience with us today.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1501", "start": 9923.126, "end": 9932.383, "text": "I know we're running a little bit behind, but you have brought this thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1502", "start": 9932.754, "end": 9936.502, "text": "Uh, Chair Pirtle-Guiney, members of the committee, my name is Steve Novick.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1503", "start": 9936.647, "end": 9938.733, "text": "Thanks for the opportunity to be before you today.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1504", "start": 9939.623, "end": 9948.583, "text": "Uh, the resolution I bring to you today, it denounces legislation that some Republicans have proposed in the U.S. House and Senate.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1505", "start": 9949.181, "end": 9958.428, "text": "Now, I realize that we could spend every minute of every week denouncing legislation that Republicans have introduced in the House and Senate, and I don't want to open the floodgates.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1506", "start": 9958.557, "end": 9965.851, "text": "But when Breach Collective came to me suggesting I bring this resolution, there are a couple of factors that made me less worried about opening the floodgates.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1507", "start": 9969.31, "end": 9981.008, "text": "A number of jurisdictions around the country—states, cities, and counties—including Multnomah County—have brought lawsuits against the fossil fuel industry to hold them accountable for damages caused by climate change.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1508", "start": 9981.685, "end": 9983.717, "text": "The lawsuits focus on the deceptive conduct.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1509", "start": 9984.578, "end": 9986.168, "text": "Of the fossil fuel companies.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1510", "start": 9986.842, "end": 10004.874, "text": "The resolution you see in front of you quotes liberally from the complaint filed by the state of Delaware, which details that as far back as 1959, the fossil fuel companies knew everything they needed to know about climate change and kept on pretending for decades that it wasn't real.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1511", "start": 10006.11, "end": 10013.393, "text": "One of the reasons I wanted to bring this resolution actually is just to give people the opportunity to read the Delaware— the elements of Delaware complaint.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1512", "start": 10016.665, "end": 10033.827, "text": "Right now, there is legislation in the House and Senate under the name Stop Climate Shakedowns Act to preempt all of these cases, to say that states, cities, counties cannot bring such cases against the fossil fuel companies.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1513", "start": 10033.877, "end": 10034.077, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1514", "start": 10035.788, "end": 10043.002, "text": "So one of the reasons I thought it was appropriate during this resolution is that this legislation would directly affect our ability to act.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1515", "start": 10043.563, "end": 10050.856, "text": "If we ever decided to join Multnomah County or bring our own lawsuit against the fossil fuel companies, this would stop us from doing that.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1516", "start": 10051.882, "end": 10068.349, "text": "Another reason, frankly, that this resolution appealed to me is that at my last job with the Oregon State Attorney General's Office, we were part of coalitions that, that were constantly filing amicus briefs defending the right of cities and counties and states to bring these suits in state court.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1517", "start": 10068.878, "end": 10074.108, "text": "What was usually going on was the fossil fuel companies were trying to remove the suits to federal court.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1518", "start": 10074.252, "end": 10079.129, "text": "We were going in saying, no, this should— these suits should properly be brought in state court.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1519", "start": 10079.706, "end": 10084.182, "text": "So bringing this resolution struck me as kind of a continuation of work that I was doing in my last job.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1520", "start": 10085.016, "end": 10087.952, "text": "So this, I mean, I would hope is a no-brainer.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1521", "start": 10088.128, "end": 10095.135, "text": "We should maintain our right That cities, states, and counties should maintain our right to go to court to seek redress of grievances.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1522", "start": 10095.652, "end": 10098.296, "text": "There should not be a special carve-out for the fossil fuel companies.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1523", "start": 10099.313, "end": 10101.167, "text": "So I ask for your support for this resolution.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1524", "start": 10103.421, "end": 10104.247, "text": "Thank you, Councilor.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1525", "start": 10104.635, "end": 10106.157, "text": "Colleagues, questions?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1526", "start": 10106.254, "end": 10109.718, "text": "Actually, before we move to questions, I believe we do have somebody signed up to testify.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1527", "start": 10110.26, "end": 10113.069, "text": "We have one person signed up to testify, Charisse Bach.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1528", "start": 10113.618, "end": 10116.879, "text": "Okay, why don't we take our public testimony first, and then we will move to questions.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1529", "start": 10118.887, "end": 10119.821, "text": "Welcome, how are you?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1530", "start": 10125.4, "end": 10127.665, "text": "Hello, councilors, I'm doing pretty well, thank you.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1531", "start": 10127.795, "end": 10129.769, "text": "I'm Cherise Bach, I use she/her pronouns.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1532", "start": 10129.866, "end": 10139.886, "text": "I'm the climate policy director for 350 PDX, and so, uh, we bring our support for this, and thank you to Councilor Novick for bringing up this resolution.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1533", "start": 10140.678, "end": 10160.485, "text": "Uh, we submitted testimony on behalf of ourselves as well as An organizational sign-on letter from 6 organizations from Portland and around the state that you can look at, and a couple more have joined since I sent that in, so it will also grow as we get to the— hopefully the full council.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1534", "start": 10161.271, "end": 10178.201, "text": "And so this is an issue that we've been working on kind of at the state level and has been something that's really popular with folks that Councilor Novick mentioned the federal bills that are going on.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1535", "start": 10178.265, "end": 10182.67, "text": "There are also some at different state levels, and so we're concerned about those.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1536", "start": 10182.929, "end": 10196.381, "text": "And we're also wanting to pass something at the state level that would help us recover funds that fossil fuel companies have gained in profits while causing climate harm in the last several decades.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1537", "start": 10196.429, "end": 10215.369, "text": "So we're asking that the council pass a resolution and so we're part of Make Polluters Pay Coalition with over 50 groups from around the state that's working on a climate Superfund bill at the state level that would help to recover some of those costs from damages to past climate harms.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1538", "start": 10216.187, "end": 10236.864, "text": "And so this would help kind of indicate Portland's support for those types of actions that we really do need to be able to have the option to use litigation and legislation To make sure that we can pay for those climate damages that at this point taxpayers are having to pay for because we're already experiencing those climate emergencies.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1539", "start": 10238.085, "end": 10241.988, "text": "So I think that is basically all I have to say.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1540", "start": 10242.197, "end": 10246.806, "text": "There have been bills passed in New York and Vermont to make polluters pay.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1541", "start": 10247.336, "end": 10256.122, "text": "The Climate Superfund is based on kind of the Superfund model of, you know, making the companies that cause the soil and water pollution pay those damages.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1542", "start": 10256.17, "end": 10258.547, "text": "So this would extend the concept to air pollution.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1543", "start": 10259.382, "end": 10262.209, "text": "So I encourage you to vote yes for this resolution.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1544", "start": 10262.353, "end": 10273.724, "text": "And then also, if you're interested in signing on to a national sign-on letter— thank you, Councilor Novick and Councilor Murillo, for already signing that national letter— let me know and I'll send you the information.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1545", "start": 10274.302, "end": 10290.589, "text": "And I hope that also, as you're looking at Portland's legislative slate, that you will support the Climate Superfund bill at the state level and indicate that Portland would like something like that to pass so that the state gets money to deal with climate emergencies that would pass on down to cities and counties.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1546", "start": 10291.007, "end": 10291.264, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Cherise Bach" }, { "id": "cue-1547", "start": 10291.649, "end": 10297.284, "text": "Thank you so much for being here with us today and for, um, submitting that written testimony.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1548", "start": 10300.147, "end": 10301.247, "text": "That concludes testimony.", "speaker": "Keelan McClymont" }, { "id": "cue-1549", "start": 10302.38, "end": 10305.711, "text": "Great, colleagues, that moves us into discussion and debate.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1550", "start": 10307.678, "end": 10310.875, "text": "Does anybody have any questions for Councilor Novick or comments?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1551", "start": 10311.229, "end": 10312.537, "text": "Councilor Avalos, go right ahead.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1552", "start": 10314.52, "end": 10317.951, "text": "Yeah, thank you, Councilor Nowak, for bringing this up.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1553", "start": 10319.23, "end": 10329.686, "text": "I wonder if you can help me parse something out based on your logic for this resolution, because I know we just had a conversation about citizen suits around Zenith.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1554", "start": 10329.734, "end": 10333.618, "text": "I know that's an ongoing issue, but I just am seeing a similarity.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1555", "start": 10333.666, "end": 10336.975, "text": "I'm trying to understand your thinking of how this is different from that.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1556", "start": 10337.557, "end": 10349.498, "text": "Um, because the Green-Murillo amendment that we discussed, um, and this resolution obviously involve very different legal mechanisms, but they both raise this broader question about access to courts as a tool for accountability.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1557", "start": 10350.076, "end": 10359.77, "text": "Uh, I know you had some concerns about the citizen enforcement mechanism in that amendment, um, but this resolution strongly affirms preserving access to courts in the climate accountability context.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1558", "start": 10359.834, "end": 10361.744, "text": "So could you just share, uh, how you distinguish those two?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1559", "start": 10361.809, "end": 10362.659, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1560", "start": 10363.33, "end": 10368.06, "text": "Thank you, Councilor Avalos.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1561", "start": 10368.06, "end": 10378.85, "text": "So this resolution is about maintaining the rights of local and state governments to sue the fossil fuel industry for the damages caused by climate change.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1562", "start": 10379.56, "end": 10389.28, "text": "Um, the amendment brought by Councilors Green and Murillo would allow for the general public to sue to enforce the enforce rights of local and state governments to sue the fossil fuel industry for damages caused by climate change.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1563", "start": 10389.28, "end": 10389.32, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1564", "start": 10389.718, "end": 10397.056, "text": "A specific contract between the city and another party, which to me is a very different thing.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1565", "start": 10398.068, "end": 10405.839, "text": "Also, I think that the effect of passing that amendment would be to, in fact, in effect, invite the fuel company to sue the city.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1566", "start": 10406.931, "end": 10409.564, "text": "So I have concerns about that.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1567", "start": 10410.769, "end": 10427.197, "text": "But also, there is a long tradition of states and cities and counties being able to go to state court to seek redress of grievances, there is not a long tradition of using citizen suits to enforce contracts between cities and other entities.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1568", "start": 10427.711, "end": 10432.465, "text": "Normally, the people who sue to enforce a contract are the parties to a contract.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1569", "start": 10432.85, "end": 10450.213, "text": "There's limited circumstances in which outside parties are referred to as third county beneficiaries, but they're quite limited where there's that there's not a history of the general public being able to sue to enforce contracts between cities and other entities.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1570", "start": 10451.763, "end": 10452.005, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1571", "start": 10452.102, "end": 10458.658, "text": "So the distinction you're making is that government and government entities should be able to sue, but individual citizens should not be able to sue?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1572", "start": 10458.901, "end": 10460.34, "text": "Is that the difference?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1573", "start": 10460.745, "end": 10462.816, "text": "No, no, Councilor, that is not the distinction.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1574", "start": 10463.01, "end": 10464.077, "text": "Okay, tell me one more time then.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1575", "start": 10464.142, "end": 10464.627, "text": "What did I miss?", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1576", "start": 10464.87, "end": 10478.507, "text": "My distinction is between, um, bringing a lawsuit bringing a lawsuit against companies for climate damages is different than bringing a lawsuit to enforce a contract between 2 entities.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1577", "start": 10479.026, "end": 10479.886, "text": "Okay, got it.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1578", "start": 10480.551, "end": 10481.492, "text": "Okay, thanks for explaining.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1579", "start": 10481.768, "end": 10482.028, "text": "That's all.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1580", "start": 10482.498, "end": 10483.227, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Steve Novick" }, { "id": "cue-1581", "start": 10485.329, "end": 10486.364, "text": "Thank you, Councilor Avalos.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1582", "start": 10487.917, "end": 10489.097, "text": "I'll jump in.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1583", "start": 10490.116, "end": 10492.412, "text": "Councilor Novick, thank you for bringing this forward.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1584", "start": 10493.39, "end": 10507.137, "text": "When I first saw it, I was a bit concerned about this taking us down an unsustainable path of passing resolutions about what is happening at the federal level, and I really appreciate your explanation about the difference here.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1585", "start": 10509.23, "end": 10521.489, "text": "We spent our entire committee last— I guess that's 2 weeks ago— talking about climate change and the fact that we need to be doing more as as a city to meet our own climate goals.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1586", "start": 10521.537, "end": 10527.221, "text": "So the timing here is incredibly, it's incredibly well-timed.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1587", "start": 10528.586, "end": 10554.601, "text": "Climate change is imposing growing costs on our city, whether those are costs related to distributing air conditioners, costs related to cooling shelters, costs related to creating safe spaces when we have smoke events in the city from nearby wildfires, and the health costs of Portlanders that are associated with all of those things.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1588", "start": 10554.649, "end": 10559.813, "text": "We know that our costs are going up because of the actions of these fossil fuel companies.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1589", "start": 10559.878, "end": 10565.058, "text": "So I, I see a nexus here that is an important one.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1590", "start": 10565.876, "end": 10578.25, "text": "And the fact that this is about preserving our rights as a city is an important nexus as well that helps me see this as different from opening up that broader path, as you suggested.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1591", "start": 10579.84, "end": 10593.884, "text": "I actually think this is a really important resolution for us to pass, not just one that we could, but one that we must, because we need to send the signal that council wants us to engage in more lawsuits.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1592", "start": 10595.02, "end": 10599.394, "text": "The mayor has the ability, and I should say more lawsuits around climate change.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1593", "start": 10600.118, "end": 10602.305, "text": "The mayor has the ability to sign on to lawsuits on behalf of the city.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1594", "start": 10602.353, "end": 10602.675, "text": "I think that's a good point.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1595", "start": 10604.221, "end": 10607.429, "text": "But if the mayor chooses not to, council could also take action there.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1596", "start": 10608.009, "end": 10616.388, "text": "And I think that this resolution is an important signal for us to send to the mayor that we'd like to see him be more proactive in this area.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1597", "start": 10617.097, "end": 10628.749, "text": "And it's an important step for us to take to then be able to point to if we choose as a body to direct the administration to enter into some of these lawsuits.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1598", "start": 10628.943, "end": 10629.201, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1599", "start": 10629.35, "end": 10630.2, "text": "Lawsuits in the future.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1600", "start": 10630.264, "end": 10634.323, "text": "So I think there's a lot we can build on from this resolution should we move it forward.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1601", "start": 10635.462, "end": 10646.436, "text": "We know that our community is directly impacted by climate change and that when communities are harmed by climate change, we must have those legal avenues before us to be able to take actions.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1602", "start": 10646.612, "end": 10648.521, "text": "So thank you for bringing this forward.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1603", "start": 10649.42, "end": 10655.115, "text": "Thank you for, for the work that you've done in this area, and I will look forward to supporting today.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1604", "start": 10657.442, "end": 10658.598, "text": "Councilor Ryan, go right ahead.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1605", "start": 10658.967, "end": 10659.207, "text": "Sure.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1606", "start": 10659.304, "end": 10661.968, "text": "I, real quick, I just want to say thank you, Councilor Novick.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1607", "start": 10662.096, "end": 10670.12, "text": "Um, this is important, it's timely, and it's— it gets to the accountability that I keep hearing Portlanders want, um, that is crystal clear to them.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1608", "start": 10670.521, "end": 10673.746, "text": "So I really appreciate that this will hopefully pass today.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1609", "start": 10674.131, "end": 10682.219, "text": "I think, um, there's a lot of agreement up here, and, uh, I appreciate that Councilor Novick got on— got, got this to us, um, today.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1610", "start": 10682.3, "end": 10682.834, "text": "Okay, thank you.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1611", "start": 10684.909, "end": 10694.872, "text": "Colleagues, seeing no one else in the queue, um, this is a resolution, uh, so do we have a motion to move it?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1612", "start": 10695.53, "end": 10697.933, "text": "Yeah, I'll— uh, Novick can't do it.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1613", "start": 10697.998, "end": 10698.794, "text": "Novick can't do it.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1614", "start": 10699.119, "end": 10702.14, "text": "Um, I move item— sorry, I wasn't prepared for this.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1615", "start": 10702.998, "end": 10712.709, "text": "I move to, um, I move the motion to support this resolution to support the preservation of court access to taxpayers and extreme weather costs.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1616", "start": 10712.935, "end": 10715.983, "text": "Um, and so, um, do I have a second?", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1617", "start": 10716.274, "end": 10717.758, "text": "I'll second.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1618", "start": 10719.79, "end": 10720.905, "text": "And could we call the roll?", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1619", "start": 10722.94, "end": 10723.952, "text": "Morillo.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1620", "start": 10724.161, "end": 10724.45, "text": "Motion.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1621", "start": 10725.125, "end": 10725.174, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Angelita Morillo" }, { "id": "cue-1622", "start": 10726.283, "end": 10726.717, "text": "Zimmerman.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1623", "start": 10728.179, "end": 10728.726, "text": "Absent.", "speaker": "Eric Zimmerman" }, { "id": "cue-1624", "start": 10729.545, "end": 10729.899, "text": "Avalos.", "speaker": "Keelan McClymont" }, { "id": "cue-1625", "start": 10730.108, "end": 10730.156, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1626", "start": 10731.828, "end": 10732.09, "text": "Ryan.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1627", "start": 10732.449, "end": 10732.466, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Dan Ryan" }, { "id": "cue-1628", "start": 10733.103, "end": 10733.576, "text": "Pirtle-Guiney.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1629", "start": 10734.9, "end": 10734.916, "text": "Aye.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1630", "start": 10735.604, "end": 10736.996, "text": "The motion to refer is approved.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1631", "start": 10737.944, "end": 10739.309, "text": "With 4 aye votes and 1 absent.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1632", "start": 10740.273, "end": 10740.706, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Unidentified speaker" }, { "id": "cue-1633", "start": 10740.818, "end": 10744.206, "text": "And thank you, Councilor Novick, for bringing this to our committee today.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1634", "start": 10744.527, "end": 10747.498, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Candace Avalos" }, { "id": "cue-1635", "start": 10748.06, "end": 10751.335, "text": "Colleagues, we are through our agenda.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1636", "start": 10752.058, "end": 10769.347, "text": "In 2 weeks, we will have a presentation on Advance Portland, which is our city's economic development policy, and a first opportunity to talk about this is a topic we will come back to in the future.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1637", "start": 10769.972, "end": 10776.712, "text": "We will then have a discussion around the city's policy for privatizing publicly owned land.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1638", "start": 10776.793, "end": 10783.693, "text": "We do have a policy at the city for how bureaus need to move forward if they would like to sell land that is currently publicly owned.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1639", "start": 10784.399, "end": 10789.518, "text": "And our council has at various times suggested that we revisit that policy.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1640", "start": 10789.614, "end": 10789.807, "text": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Keelan McClymont" }, { "id": "cue-1641", "start": 10790, "end": 10792.81, "text": "We may want to revisit that policy.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1642", "start": 10792.858, "end": 10810.233, "text": "So we'll have an opportunity to learn more about what is currently on the books, begin a discussion about what we might want to do there moving forward, and then hear a specific request to transfer property currently owned by the city to a private entity.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1643", "start": 10811.148, "end": 10813.734, "text": "We will be back in 2 weeks for those conversations.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1644", "start": 10814.039, "end": 10815.596, "text": "Thank you all for the debate today.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" }, { "id": "cue-1645", "start": 10815.805, "end": 10818.344, "text": "And with that, I will close our committee meeting.", "speaker": "Elana Pirtle-Guiney" } ] }