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<v Candace Avalos>Good afternoon.

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<v Candace Avalos>I will call the meeting of Housing and Permitting Committee to order.

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<v Candace Avalos>It is Tuesday, August 4th at 2 PM.

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<v Candace Avalos>Diego, please call the roll.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Good afternoon.

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<v Steve Novick>Koyama Lane?

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<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Here.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Novick?

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<v Steve Novick>Here.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Green?

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<v Mitch Green>Here.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Pirtle-Guiney?

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Here.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Avalos?

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<v Candace Avalos>Present.

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<v Candace Avalos>Claire, please read the statement of conduct.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Thank you, Chair.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Good afternoon and welcome to the meeting of the Housing and Permitting Committee.

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<v Unidentified speaker>To testify before this committee in person or virtually, you must sign up in advance on the committee agenda at portland.gov/council/agenda/housingandpermittingcommittee or by calling 311.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Registration for virtual testimony closes 1 hour prior to the meeting.

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<v Unidentified speaker>In-person testifiers must sign up before the agenda item is heard.

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<v Unidentified speaker>If public testimony will be taken on an item, individuals may testify for 3 minutes unless the chair states otherwise.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Your microphone will be muted when your time is over.

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<v Unidentified speaker>The chair preserves order.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Disruptive conduct such as shouting, refusing to conclude your testimony when your time is up, or interrupting others' testimony or committee deliberations will not be allowed.

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<v Unidentified speaker>If you cause a disruption, a warning will be given.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Further disruption will result in ejection from the meeting.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Anyone who fails to leave once ejected is subject to arrest for trespass.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Additionally, the committee may take a short recess and reconvene virtually.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Your testimony should address the matter being considered.

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<v Unidentified speaker>When testifying, please state your name for the record.

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<v Unidentified speaker>If you are a lobbyist, identify the organization you represent.

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<v Unidentified speaker>And finally, virtual testifiers should unmute themselves when the clerk calls your name.

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<v Michael Anderson>Thank you.

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<v Candace Avalos>Thank you, Claire.

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<v Candace Avalos>We have 4 main items on our agenda.

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<v Candace Avalos>We'll have some time for public comment.

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<v Candace Avalos>Then we will do a continuation of the foreclosure properties that we discussed on July 21st.

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<v Candace Avalos>Then we will have an ordinance on housing and a housing financing grant.

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<v Candace Avalos>And after a short break, we will talk about the single stair design and hear from Portland Neighbors Welcome about a local design competition that they organized.

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<v Candace Avalos>So, but before we get to our main items, we need to adopt committee minutes for our meetings on June 2nd and June 16th.

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<v Candace Avalos>Diego, can you please read the item?

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 1, June 2nd through June 16th, 2026, Housing and Permitting Committee minutes.

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<v Candace Avalos>The minutes are approved by unanimous consent.

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<v Candace Avalos>So are there any objections?

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<v Candace Avalos>Without objection, the minutes are approved.

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<v Candace Avalos>Diego, please read the next item.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 2, document number 2026-271, Housing and Permitting Community Feedback.

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<v Candace Avalos>All right, we will now hear from community members on their ideas or concerns or feedback regarding housing and permitting issues.

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<v Candace Avalos>Each testifier will have 3 minutes.

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<v Candace Avalos>Diego, go ahead and call the first person.

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<v Unidentified speaker>First up, we have Madeline Masters.

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<v Kevin Foster>Welcome.

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<v Candace Avalos>Go ahead and introduce yourself and get started.

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<v Steve Novick>Thank you.

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<v Steve Novick>My name is Madeline Masters.

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<v Steve Novick>I'm in District 2.

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<v Steve Novick>Good afternoon, councilors.

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<v Steve Novick>I'm here to discuss unintended consequences.

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<v Steve Novick>I'd like to give you the view from North Portland, where what you call infill smells an awful lot like urban renewal.

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<v Steve Novick>It smells a lot like extracting value from city dwellers to enrich suburban developers.

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<v Steve Novick>It's a Trojan horse.

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<v Steve Novick>Soon to be demolished is a landmark of my street, an old-growth bungalow with twinkling multi-pane windows listed by the city as a significant contributing historic resource.

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<v Steve Novick>As a habitable 5-bedroom, it could be multigenerational housing, or to increase the development value, could be expanded and adapted to multifamily or even commercial use.

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<v Steve Novick>But these possibilities are prohibited under R-2.5.

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<v Steve Novick>To maximize value under the new zoning, the developer must demolish it, even as nearby houses and lots sit empty.

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<v Steve Novick>Is this sustainable?

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<v Steve Novick>Bought privately for $450,000, it is now listed as a raised development site for $695,000.

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<v Steve Novick>The developer's other nearby projects— project features 900-square-foot houses selling for nearly $400,000, double the cost per square foot.

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<v Steve Novick>Is this affordable?

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<v Steve Novick>We are losing lifelong housing in a neighborhood of multigenerational households.

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<v Steve Novick>The buyers of these new vertical units will have to sell when they can no longer take the stairs.

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<v Steve Novick>They'll probably have to leave Portland.

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<v Steve Novick>Is this wealth building?

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<v Steve Novick>Is it community building?

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<v Steve Novick>A thoughtful answer could have created a mix of ground floor and upper floor units using the existing structure with new additions.

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<v Steve Novick>The design would show consideration of the existing neighbors and the history and aesthetics that make a neighborhood special.

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<v Steve Novick>That's infill.

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<v Steve Novick>But when you massively upzone the entire city or state, you don't target the areas that need investment, but areas that are stable, and you destabilize them.

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<v Steve Novick>You discourage investment in existing structures.

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<v Steve Novick>You encourage land speculation and demolition and vacancy.

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<v Steve Novick>With historic structures often on larger lots, you put a bigger target on the most special properties.

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<v Steve Novick>You take out markers of local identity and end up with the same new developments cut and pasted in every neighborhood.

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<v Steve Novick>Is this housing diversity?

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<v Steve Novick>There's currently a $64 million listing by one developer for a portfolio of 170 new-build homes.

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<v Steve Novick>This is who is building wealth under this scheme.

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<v Steve Novick>Is this equitable?

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<v Steve Novick>Is it democratic?

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<v Steve Novick>I also question how the city is meant to support housing, housing, housing while we are losing commercial tax base and cutting schools and fire stations.

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<v Steve Novick>But as to zoning, 6 major points which are a bit more fleshed out on the page that I shared.

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<v Steve Novick>One, transparency is essential to market participation as well as to democracy.

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<v Steve Novick>2, Targeted rezoning works better than sweeping changes.

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<v Steve Novick>3, Restrict demolition but give historic preservation an upside.

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<v Steve Novick>4, Form-based zoning and use flexibility are better incentives than bulk bonuses.

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<v Steve Novick>5, Design for longevity.

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<v Steve Novick>6, Aesthetics matter to everyone.

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<v Steve Novick>Pretty neighborhoods draw taxpayers.

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<v Steve Novick>Stable neighborhoods retain them.

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<v Steve Novick>Please remember this.

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<v Steve Novick>Thank you.

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<v Candace Avalos>Thank you for your testimony.

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<v Candace Avalos>Diego, please call the next person.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Next is Lacey Sutton.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Hi, Lacey Sutton.

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<v Lacey Sutton>I'd like to talk more about the balcony railings at Cherry Blossom.

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<v Lacey Sutton>It's not our most pressing concern, but it's a really good example of the sort of thing your self-proclaimed biggest customer was able to get away with.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Even before moving into our new homes, parents expressed concerns about having horizontal bars immediately outside the sliding glass door on the second story with concrete below, but Habitat for Humanity refused to replace them.

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<v Lacey Sutton>In the years since, I have witnessed countless times children climbing these bars and felt immense frustration with such a stupid, careless design.

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<v Lacey Sutton>So imagine my surprise when I discovered that the design commission had actually made vertical railings a condition of Approval.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Why?

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<v Lacey Sutton>Because they shared the same concerns about horizontal bars.

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<v Lacey Sutton>During the recorded hearing, a commissioner said the ladder has other problems, which is kids can actually climb and jump over them.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Vertical balcony railings were a legal requirement of this build, so why do we have ladders?

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<v Lacey Sutton>By the way, the condition also states unit entry stoop safety railings shall be vertical, but some of these have horizontal railings as well, and the rest of them are just big bars with no safety railings at all.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Nothing for small hands to hold on to.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Thank you.

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<v Lacey Sutton>I've previously testified about how, following my complaint to PP&D, I was told that former Director Kuhnhausen met with CEO Steve Messinetti to discuss the things they missed.

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<v Lacey Sutton>And in an exceedingly rare moment of accountability, Habitat was given directives to replace the railings.

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<v Lacey Sutton>But after this made the evening news, PP&D reneged.

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<v Lacey Sutton>When I asked for an explanation repeatedly for weeks, I was merely forwarded the memo the director sent to City Council, which dismissed All my concerns about Cherry Blossom.

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<v Lacey Sutton>He never wrote a word to me.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Why should he when he can just send out some BS he knew no one would fact-check?

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<v Lacey Sutton>On the balconies, he said, well, there was a condition in the land use review for this site stating that the railing must be vertical.

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<v Lacey Sutton>This condition was related to aesthetics, not safety.

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<v Lacey Sutton>The railings were shown as horizontal in the 2019 land use review, which amended the previously approved design.

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<v Lacey Sutton>He's referring to the Type 2 review Habitat got for minor changes.

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<v Lacey Sutton>They weren't minor, but I digress.

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<v Lacey Sutton>It didn't even mention railings because a single staffer could not and did not amend a condition of approval decided upon by the Design Commission during a Type 3 review.

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<v Lacey Sutton>The idea that an architect's drawing could do that is absurd.

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<v Lacey Sutton>To amend this condition, Habitat would have had to get another Type 3 review.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Here's a PP&D supervisor telling them this via email in 20—.

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<v Rebecca Dobert>2019.

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<v Lacey Sutton>19.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Any condition of approval not met would require a follow-up Type 3 DZ.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Please meet all conditions of approval so another Type 3 DZ is not required.

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<v Lacey Sutton>But then, like so many things that were required for Cherry Blossom Habitat, just didn't do it, and the city just signed off on it, and there were zero consequences.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Unless a kid falls, I guess, or until a tree falls on a house, or there's a fire, then there will be consequences.

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<v Lacey Sutton>Thank you.

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<v Unidentified speaker>That concludes testimony.

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<v Candace Avalos>Thank you again for folks for testifying in front of us today.

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<v Candace Avalos>Always an opportunity to share your experience at committee.

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<v Candace Avalos>Um, Diego, go ahead and call the next item, or actually, um, please open items 3 through 16.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 3, document number 2026-247, initiate foreclosure action on 7545 Northeast Sandy Boulevard for the collection of delinquent delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 4, document number 2026-248, initiate foreclosure action on 7545 WI/Northeast Sandy Boulevard for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 5, document number 2026-249, initiate foreclosure action on 6307 North Montana Ave for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 6, document number 2026-250, initiate foreclosure action on North Columbia Boulevard for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 7, document number 2026-252, initiate foreclosure action on 7250 Northeast Sandy Boulevard— excuse me, Northeast Lombard Street for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 8, document number 2026-253, initiate foreclosure action on 7101—.

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<v Kevin Foster>7101.

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<v Unidentified speaker>7103 Southeast Division Street for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 9, document number 2026-254, initiate foreclosure action on 1625 Southeast 35th Ave for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 10, document number 2026-255, initiate foreclosure action on 2706 Southeast 122nd Ave for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 11, document number 2026-256, initiate foreclosure action on 2734-2738 Northeast Alberta Street for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 12, document number 2026-257, initiate foreclosure action on 4324 Southeast 65th Ave for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 13, document number 2026-258, initiate foreclosure action on 6627 Southeast Woodstock Boulevard for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 14, document number 2026-259, initiate foreclosure action on 10104 Southeast Herald Street for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 15, document number 2026-261, initiate foreclosure action on 5706 Southeast Lambert Street for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Unidentified speaker>Item 16, document number 2026-261, initiate foreclosure action on 855 Northeast Church Street for the collection of delinquent city liens placed against the property.

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<v Candace Avalos>Thank you, Diego.

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<v Candace Avalos>All right, give me one quick second, folks.

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<v Candace Avalos>I am clarifying okay, so at the mayor's request, we are withdrawing 2 items from the agenda and referring these back to the mayor's office.

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<v Candace Avalos>That is item 9, document 2026-254, property located at 1635 Southeast 35th Avenue, where the owner has satisfied the balance owed on the liens.

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<v Unidentified speaker>So moved.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Second.

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<v Ian Crozier>Second.

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<v Candace Avalos>And item 10, document 2026-255, property located at 2706 Southeast 122nd Avenue where the owner has closed their open case and entered into a payment plan.

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<v Candace Avalos>Additionally, before we take on the remaining items, I'd like to note that I will not be calling for a vote today on item 14, document 2026-256.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yes.

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<v Candace Avalos>Based on information that has recently come to my attention, I believe additional time is appropriate to allow the property owner's family to determine whether they can resolve the situation without the need for foreclosure.

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<v Candace Avalos>And we can ask questions on that if you'd like.

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<v Candace Avalos>And then as a reminder, we continued this ordinance package to allow more time for committee member questions about specific properties that are eligible for foreclosure under city administrative rule.

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<v Candace Avalos>So I will ask Kevin Foster, our Foreclosure Prevention Manager, to provide us with any updates on the properties and potential resolution, and then we will open it up to committee questions and discussion.

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<v Candace Avalos>So with that, take it away.

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<v Kevin Foster>All right, good afternoon, Chair Avalos, Vice Chair Green, and the Housing Committee.

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<v Kevin Foster>For the record, I'll state my name, Kevin Foster, Foreclosure Prevention Manager for the city.

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<v Kevin Foster>Okay, as we discussed, these are the 2 properties that were removed within the last 2 weeks.

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<v Kevin Foster>So actually, we're taking off one more today, so there's actually going to be 11 properties that we're moving forward with.

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<v Kevin Foster>All right, and where would you like me to start?

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<v Kevin Foster>Yeah, Chair Avalos.

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<v Candace Avalos>Wherever.

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<v Kevin Foster>Just— okay, okay.

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<v Kevin Foster>So this is the, um, this property, 7545 Northeast Sandy Boulevard.

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<v Kevin Foster>Um, we went over it last week.

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<v Kevin Foster>There's been no engagement with the owner, um, or any of the parties of interest.

185
00:23:28.701 --> 00:23:35.423
<v Kevin Foster>Um, in the last 2 weeks, I did speak with one party of interest like I told you last time, and they told me there's nothing they can really do.

186
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:40.327
<v Kevin Foster>Um, so of course this is why it's remaining on the list.

187
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<v Kevin Foster>Now this property, 6307 North Montana Avenue, we received an email within the last hour, and they've been able to— the attorney that's working with the lender they've been able to get closer to resolving the property, resolving the issues at the property and getting a certificate of occupancy and certificate of completion.

188
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<v Kevin Foster>So this one we won't be moving forward with.

189
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<v Kevin Foster>So I think what I'm going to do is, because I've already gone through the presentation with you guys before, if we could just get to some— maybe you guys have specific questions about properties.

190
00:24:23.818 --> 00:24:24.911
<v Kevin Foster>And I could just go from there.

191
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<v Candace Avalos>All right, sounds good.

192
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.455
<v Candace Avalos>We will kick it off with Councilor Pirtle-Guiney.

193
00:24:32.747 --> 00:24:34.441
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you, Chair, and thank you for being back.

194
00:24:34.506 --> 00:24:38.798
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>There were 2 properties I had asked questions about the previous time you were here.

195
00:24:38.862 --> 00:24:44.450
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>It sounds like one of them, 10104 Southeast Herald, we're not moving forward today.

196
00:24:45.277 --> 00:24:48.084
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>The other was 855 Northeast Church Street.

197
00:24:49.108 --> 00:25:04.403
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>You told us a few weeks ago that the property owner there had plans for the property but hadn't been able to provide any proof of engagement with a contractor or anything else to show you that they were moving forward with those plans.

198
00:25:05.029 --> 00:25:07.568
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Have there been any updates over the last few weeks?

199
00:25:07.616 --> 00:25:15.038
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Have they been able to produce anything, or are we still in a situation where they are reporting plans but not able to give you any concrete information?

200
00:25:15.152 --> 00:25:16.368
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>To show those moving forward?

201
00:25:16.834 --> 00:25:20.550
<v Kevin Foster>Yes, right now we're still in that same state, but she is out of town right now.

202
00:25:21.464 --> 00:25:24.814
<v Kevin Foster>Um, so that's why one of the reasons when I spoke with her last, she was out of town.

203
00:25:25.309 --> 00:25:28.145
<v Kevin Foster>I believe she comes back either late this week or next week.

204
00:25:28.227 --> 00:25:36.157
<v Kevin Foster>Uh, I wanted her to have the contractor just call me just so I could speak with someone and, and get this removed from the list, but we haven't been able to do that yet.

205
00:25:37.647 --> 00:25:49.551
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Do you think that she'll have sufficient time between when this moves out of committee and when it moves to to full council to be able to be in touch with you, given what you know about her schedule and her ability to have her contractors in touch.

206
00:25:49.777 --> 00:25:50.001
<v Kevin Foster>Yes.

207
00:25:50.259 --> 00:25:54.208
<v Kevin Foster>And the good thing about it is that once it goes to— it's not going to full council until September 9th.

208
00:25:54.673 --> 00:25:58.462
<v Kevin Foster>We still have a month until then, but you won't be voting that date either.

209
00:25:58.848 --> 00:26:00.471
<v Kevin Foster>So you won't vote on the 9th as well.

210
00:26:00.535 --> 00:26:02.767
<v Kevin Foster>You guys vote like, I think, 2 weeks or a week later.

211
00:26:03.730 --> 00:26:07.439
<v Kevin Foster>So we still have time to remove it if we're able to get some commitment from her.

212
00:26:08.467 --> 00:26:19.958
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Chair, given that timeline, and I think there's been more clarity in what the city needs from this property owner since we first met, I am comfortable moving this one forward today.

213
00:26:21.001 --> 00:26:27.196
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I would ask that as you have conversations with the council president, these not be put on the consent agenda.

214
00:26:27.244 --> 00:26:33.537
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I don't know if that's something he's been planning for or not, because I would like the opportunity to ask about this property again at full council.

215
00:26:33.601 --> 00:26:33.744
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you.

216
00:26:33.809 --> 00:26:36.758
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Council with the hopes that there are some updates within the next month.

217
00:26:37.465 --> 00:26:40.817
<v Candace Avalos>Remind me the document number for the property you're mentioning.

218
00:26:41.413 --> 00:26:42.878
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Let me find it on the list.

219
00:26:42.926 --> 00:26:45.662
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I apologize, I was looking at the address.

220
00:26:46.627 --> 00:26:50.310
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>It is— give me just a moment— uh, 16.

221
00:26:51.242 --> 00:26:54.359
<v Steve Novick>Oh, okay.

222
00:26:54.520 --> 00:26:57.027
<v Candace Avalos>This is the one that we're talking about, the same property?

223
00:26:57.573 --> 00:26:59.163
<v Candace Avalos>Is that what we're—.

224
00:26:59.163 --> 00:27:05.396
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I thought you had said that you were pulling document 14, um, 9, 10, and 5 off the list.

225
00:27:05.478 --> 00:27:09.604
<v Candace Avalos>I don't know if my numbers are correct, so tell me the document number.

226
00:27:09.970 --> 00:27:12.621
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Oh, uh, 2026-261.

227
00:27:12.750 --> 00:27:13.769
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, 261.

228
00:27:13.817 --> 00:27:16.000
<v Candace Avalos>Yeah, that's why it's, it's numbered differently on my end.

229
00:27:16.082 --> 00:27:19.817
<v Candace Avalos>So that one you are saying you would like to move forward with, is what I'm hearing?

230
00:27:19.865 --> 00:27:26.836
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>That one I'm saying— I assume we are moving these forward today, and if so, I had raised concerns about this property.

231
00:27:26.916 --> 00:27:45.531
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>What I'm sharing is that if you are hoping to move all of these forward today, I'm comfortable moving this forward with that, but would ask that it come to council in such form that I can ask questions about whether progress has been made over the next month when we're at full council.

232
00:27:45.596 --> 00:28:03.142
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So if you are having conversations with the council president about either a consent agenda or bulking items for a vote at council, I would ask that this not be included in any actions like that and that it come forward as a standalone item where I'll have the opportunity to check in on any progress.

233
00:28:05.070 --> 00:28:05.788
<v Candace Avalos>Great, sounds good.

234
00:28:06.391 --> 00:28:06.842
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you, Chair.

235
00:28:10.278 --> 00:28:11.967
<v Candace Avalos>Committee, any other questions?

236
00:28:16.609 --> 00:28:16.772
<v Candace Avalos>Okay.

237
00:28:18.862 --> 00:28:20.478
<v Candace Avalos>Was there anything further you wanted to share?

238
00:28:22.436 --> 00:28:23.113
<v Kevin Foster>No, that's all I had.

239
00:28:23.275 --> 00:28:24.031
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay, great.

240
00:28:24.788 --> 00:28:29.172
<v Candace Avalos>Well then, in that case, I'm just trying to get the right language up here.

241
00:28:30.099 --> 00:28:39.566
<v Candace Avalos>So like I said last time, we are able to move them in bulk, and what I'm going to do is I'm going to name all of the properties as was stated.

242
00:28:39.615 --> 00:28:40.211
<v Candace Avalos>Let me just check.

243
00:28:40.342 --> 00:28:47.962
<v Candace Avalos>1, 2— Okay, yeah, so 11 total properties that I will read.

244
00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:49.518
<v Candace Avalos>Are we on the same page about that?

245
00:28:50.222 --> 00:28:50.462
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yes?

246
00:28:51.232 --> 00:28:52.098
<v Kevin Foster>No, 10 properties.

247
00:28:52.547 --> 00:28:55.336
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, we're not on the same page.

248
00:28:55.576 --> 00:28:57.147
<v Candace Avalos>Let's figure out what the discrepancy is.

249
00:28:58.046 --> 00:29:30.859
<v Candace Avalos>I have— why don't I— so the numbers that I have that we are approving today or moving forward, I'm going to list them: 247, 248, 249, 250, 252, 253, Chair, I think, and Kevin can clarify, item 5, which is 2026-249, is the 6307 Montana.

250
00:29:30.859 --> 00:29:36.299
<v Unidentified speaker>And that one you are asking be referred back to the mayor's office, meaning the committee does not need to take action, correct?

251
00:29:36.299 --> 00:29:36.359
<v Lacey Sutton>Yes.

252
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:38.759
<v Candace Avalos>So are there 3 that are getting referred back to the mayor's office?

253
00:29:38.890 --> 00:29:39.240
<v Kevin Foster>Yes.

254
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:40.480
<v Candace Avalos>'Cause on my list I only have 2.

255
00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:42.701
<v Kevin Foster>Yeah, this just came in within the last hour.

256
00:29:42.958 --> 00:29:48.500
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, so 2— and the numbering's off, so don't tell me the number of the item, tell me the actual number of the item.

257
00:29:48.566 --> 00:29:49.416
<v Candace Avalos>So 249.

258
00:29:49.770 --> 00:29:51.184
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Chair, point of information, I'm sorry.

259
00:29:51.844 --> 00:29:59.508
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Um, you all are talking about 3 items being referred back to the mayor's office, but I thought you had said there were 4 not moving forward.

260
00:29:59.571 --> 00:30:01.548
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Could you help us understand what the 4th item is?

261
00:30:01.837 --> 00:30:06.384
<v Candace Avalos>So the 3 that are not moving forward were— are from the mayor.

262
00:30:06.786 --> 00:30:11.903
<v Candace Avalos>259 Is going to just live in limbo, essentially, is what I'm understanding.

263
00:30:12.096 --> 00:30:17.180
<v Candace Avalos>It's— it'll be lit— it'll be in committee, stay open, and can be scheduled at a later date.

264
00:30:18.094 --> 00:30:27.269
<v Unidentified speaker>Um, we did consult with the city attorney on this, Chair, and the advice we got is— so it's a little bit different than the other 3 that are being referred back to the mayor's office.

265
00:30:27.333 --> 00:30:46.934
<v Unidentified speaker>So effectively, with unanimous consent from the committee, you can continue the item to a future to-be-determined date that you don't need to state that keeps it alive, but it would not— that item 250— sorry, 2026-259 would not be moving on with the package to Council at that September date.

266
00:30:47.498 --> 00:31:00.186
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So should we understand as committee members that the other 3 are being removed because of actions that have taken place with the administrative office and that this one is being removed for other reasons?

267
00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:03.425
<v Candace Avalos>It's being delayed, so that's why it's not being removed.

268
00:31:03.473 --> 00:31:05.012
<v Candace Avalos>It's still going to be on the committee docket.

269
00:31:05.060 --> 00:31:08.154
<v Candace Avalos>The other 3 are getting officially removed from the list.

270
00:31:08.811 --> 00:31:14.550
<v Candace Avalos>259 will stay technically on the list and just kind of live in limbo while we give that homeowner some time.

271
00:31:14.598 --> 00:31:20.273
<v Candace Avalos>We've gotten some information that they need some more time, and then we can put it on another committee agenda in the future.

272
00:31:20.611 --> 00:31:33.262
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And is that the recommendation of the administration, or is this an action that you're asking for separate from I think I misunderstood and thought that this was an ask from the administration as well.

273
00:31:33.953 --> 00:31:35.078
<v Candace Avalos>It is an ask from me.

274
00:31:36.241 --> 00:31:38.714
<v Candace Avalos>Am I correct that that's how we're phrasing it?

275
00:31:40.809 --> 00:31:41.803
<v Candace Avalos>Let me check with my team.

276
00:31:45.665 --> 00:31:51.625
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, the info that we received was from Mr. Foster, but this is my request.

277
00:31:53.801 --> 00:31:54.285
<v Rebecca Dobert>Correct.

278
00:31:55.184 --> 00:32:00.922
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, questions on that or thoughts on that?

279
00:32:01.982 --> 00:32:11.380
<v Candace Avalos>Like I said, it is simply being delayed to be put on another agenda once we get more information because we've— they've been in touch and they need more time is what we were told.

280
00:32:11.992 --> 00:32:18.125
<v Candace Avalos>Yeah, okay, so to confirm, 249 is what I need to cross off my list?

281
00:32:19.203 --> 00:32:24.663
<v Candace Avalos>249, 254, And 255 are the ones that are pulled back by the mayor's office, correct?

282
00:32:25.852 --> 00:32:26.348
<v Rebecca Dobert>That's correct.

283
00:32:26.605 --> 00:32:29.849
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, so let me cross this out so I don't get confused.

284
00:32:30.267 --> 00:32:35.886
<v Candace Avalos>Um, and so then therefore there will be 10, as we said, because we took that off.

285
00:32:36.064 --> 00:32:36.256
<v Candace Avalos>Yes.

286
00:32:37.010 --> 00:32:43.657
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, so I'm gonna go ahead and move forward with, uh, entertaining a motion unless there are other questions or discussion.

287
00:32:44.094 --> 00:32:44.451
<v Kari Mosden>On this.

288
00:32:46.276 --> 00:32:50.087
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, so I am going to entertain a motion to move the following ordinances.

289
00:32:51.715 --> 00:33:26.680
<v Candace Avalos>Um, document number 2026-247, document number 2026-248, 2026-250, 2026-252, 2026-253, 2026-256, 2026-257, 2026-258, 2026-260, and 2026-261 to the full council with a recommendation to pass.

290
00:33:27.730 --> 00:33:29.740
<v Candace Avalos>So I entertained a motion, so I need somebody to move it.

291
00:33:30.769 --> 00:33:31.589
<v Mitch Green>So moved.

292
00:33:31.589 --> 00:33:33.650
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, moved by Vice Chair Green.

293
00:33:33.650 --> 00:33:34.140
<v Mitch Green>Do I have a second?

294
00:33:34.309 --> 00:33:34.329
<v Steve Novick>Second.

295
00:33:34.329 --> 00:33:36.130
<v Candace Avalos>Seconded by Councilor Novick.

296
00:33:36.130 --> 00:33:37.390
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, any further discussion?

297
00:33:39.913 --> 00:33:40.894
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, please call the roll.

298
00:33:49.286 --> 00:33:49.334
<v Candace Avalos>Aye.

299
00:33:51.777 --> 00:33:51.825
<v Unidentified speaker>Aye.

300
00:33:53.304 --> 00:33:53.384
<v Steve Novick>Aye.

301
00:33:54.990 --> 00:33:55.152
<v Candace Avalos>Aye.

302
00:33:56.356 --> 00:33:56.453
<v Steve Novick>Aye.

303
00:33:57.320 --> 00:34:30.909
<v Unidentified speaker>With 5 ayes, the motion carries, and the ordinances, document number 2026-247, 2026-248, 2026-250, 2026-252, 2026-253, 2026-256, 2026-257, 2026-258, 2026-260, 2026-261 will move to the full council with the recommendation they be passed.

304
00:34:32.061 --> 00:34:32.320
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you.

305
00:34:32.369 --> 00:34:33.114
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you, Mr. Pastor.

306
00:34:34.085 --> 00:34:35.202
<v Candace Avalos>Diego, please read the next item.

307
00:34:39.005 --> 00:34:51.418
<v Unidentified speaker>Item 17, document number 2026-272, appropriate grant award of $35 million for Section 108 Loan Guarantee Program.

308
00:34:53.048 --> 00:35:01.913
<v Candace Avalos>All right, so this ordinance appropriates award funds from HUD Section 108 Loan Guarantee Program for the city's use in supporting regulated affordable housing.

309
00:35:02.409 --> 00:35:11.697
<v Candace Avalos>The funds must serve households earning 0 to 80% AMI and can be used for property acquisition, conversion, or rehabilitation of existing affordable housing properties.

310
00:35:12.146 --> 00:35:16.396
<v Candace Avalos>So I will go ahead and hand it off to our colleagues in the Grants Office and the Housing Bureau.

311
00:35:17.583 --> 00:35:17.793
<v Candace Avalos>Go ahead.

312
00:35:18.130 --> 00:35:18.900
<v Kari Mosden>Good afternoon.

313
00:35:19.172 --> 00:35:20.552
<v Kari Mosden>Can you hear me okay?

314
00:35:21.594 --> 00:35:21.835
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Great.

315
00:35:22.076 --> 00:35:23.134
<v Kari Mosden>My name is Kari Mosden.

316
00:35:23.197 --> 00:35:24.545
<v Kari Mosden>I'm with the Grants Management Division.

317
00:35:24.626 --> 00:35:28.251
<v Kari Mosden>I'm stepping in for Sheila Craig, who was taken away today.

318
00:35:28.570 --> 00:35:28.967
<v Kari Mosden>Not taken away.

319
00:35:29.036 --> 00:35:29.762
<v Kari Mosden>That's the wrong language.

320
00:35:31.250 --> 00:35:32.416
<v Kari Mosden>Pulled aside for other things today.

321
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:42.545
<v Kari Mosden>So budget appropriation ordinance for the item that you just mentioned, appropriating the award for Section 108 Loan Guarantee Program for $35 million.

322
00:35:45.983 --> 00:35:47.454
<v Kari Mosden>Let me get— there we go.

323
00:35:48.748 --> 00:35:52.726
<v Kari Mosden>So this, as you have just outlined, I will just say again what you've just said.

324
00:35:52.773 --> 00:36:00.172
<v Kari Mosden>The ordinance amendment amends the budget to appropriate funds awarded by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development into the grants fund.

325
00:36:00.909 --> 00:36:09.577
<v Kari Mosden>This grant application with SAP ID HC204 was submitted on July 1st, 2025.

326
00:36:10.443 --> 00:36:18.246
<v Kari Mosden>HUD notified the city of the Section 108 Affordable Housing Loan Fund award to the city in the amount of $35 million.

327
00:36:18.295 --> 00:36:24.208
<v Kari Mosden>Typically with awards, there is a period of performance, but there is not one with this award agreement that has been specified.

328
00:36:24.273 --> 00:36:24.449
<v Kari Mosden>Thank you.

329
00:36:25.025 --> 00:36:29.181
<v Kari Mosden>And the Housing Bureau expects to fund a pipeline of projects over a 5-year period.

330
00:36:29.775 --> 00:36:41.695
<v Kari Mosden>First loan may close as early as the end of 2027, meaning the repayment period would then run from 12/2027 to 12/2052, which is 20 years from the date of the final loan closing.

331
00:36:42.931 --> 00:36:50.117
<v Kari Mosden>The award does not require any matching funds, and it is intended to supplement, not replace existing city revenues.

332
00:36:52.088 --> 00:36:56.458
<v Kari Mosden>I'll just do a high-level overview of what the award will fund.

333
00:36:57.155 --> 00:37:05.414
<v Kari Mosden>It's seeking to support the creation of an affordable housing loan fund targeted to projects that create or preserve housing affordability to low- and moderate-income households.

334
00:37:06.184 --> 00:37:20.889
<v Kari Mosden>The proposed affordable housing loan fund seeks to address Portland's need to add 38,000 units of affordable housing to households earning 0 to 80% AMI by 2045, as described in the city's 2023 Housing Needs Analysis.

335
00:37:22.012 --> 00:37:34.173
<v Kari Mosden>The Portland Housing Bureau is in the process of developing a recommended spending plan as well as investment requirements and preferences for an upcoming solicitation for funding requests to use these Section 108 funds.

336
00:37:35.246 --> 00:38:05.202
<v Kari Mosden>And generally, Section 108 funds can fund the following types of projects: rehabilitation of existing regulated affordable rental housing and units owned by low and moderate income homeowners, acquisition and rehabilitation of existing office or residential buildings for conversion to affordable housing, and activities to facilitate new affordable housing development, including land acquisition, clearance, site preparation, infrastructure remediation, relocation, or other eligible uses.

337
00:38:06.277 --> 00:38:11.538
<v Kari Mosden>That is the end of my presentation, and I welcome questions about the award.

338
00:38:11.603 --> 00:38:11.778
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you.

339
00:38:12.420 --> 00:38:13.641
<v Kari Mosden>Process itself.

340
00:38:14.057 --> 00:38:19.858
<v Kari Mosden>We have some folks from the Housing Bureau if there are, uh, PHB-specific questions as well.

341
00:38:20.324 --> 00:38:20.436
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Great.

342
00:38:20.485 --> 00:38:23.184
<v Candace Avalos>Before we do that, um, do we have folks to sign up to testify?

343
00:38:26.384 --> 00:38:28.164
<v Unidentified speaker>We have one individual signed up.

344
00:38:29.784 --> 00:38:30.335
<v Unidentified speaker>Would you like me to—.

345
00:38:30.577 --> 00:38:34.990
<v Candace Avalos>Without objection, are we okay to take that person and then come back to questions, committee?

346
00:38:35.090 --> 00:38:35.949
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, let's go ahead.

347
00:38:38.168 --> 00:38:43.827
<v Unidentified speaker>Um, home-forward-cages-people-for-profit.

348
00:38:44.746 --> 00:38:47.923
<v Unidentified speaker>End-the-suffering-now.

349
00:38:57.164 --> 00:38:58.032
<v Unidentified speaker>That concludes testimony.

350
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:03.509
<v Candace Avalos>All right, well then we'll go ahead with questions in the queue, starting with Councilor Koyama Lane.

351
00:39:05.507 --> 00:39:06.422
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Thank you for being here.

352
00:39:07.273 --> 00:39:15.590
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>First, I wanted to say thank you and congratulations to the staff at PHB for working on this, for the work in securing the funding.

353
00:39:16.168 --> 00:39:23.313
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>I understand that these are long processes and appreciate the hard work and public engagement and dedication to this.

354
00:39:23.554 --> 00:39:24.516
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you.

355
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<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Wondering if we can hear a little bit more about the types of eligible projects.

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<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Looking to support through the Affordable Housing Loan Fund and also the outreach plan to— and how— what the intention is to let partners know more about this.

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<v Kari Mosden>Absolutely.

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<v Kari Mosden>I'll rely on my colleague Amanda Saul from the Housing Bureau.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Good afternoon, everyone.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I'm Amanda Saul with Portland Housing Bureau.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thanks for your question.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I think we're still working on figuring out our implementation process.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I think initially we will focus our— focus the funding on preservation of existing affordable housing projects because that's where we're seeing the most need in the community right now.

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<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>So those are ones that are already in the process of—.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Those are ones that are already— that already have affordable housing restrictions and may have had, you know, renters living in them for 20 or 40 years, and it's time to do a big rehab.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Replace the roof, replace the HVAC system, sort of do a whole rehab plus financial restructure.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And that's what these funds are often used for.

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<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>And will PH be going out to do outreach to figure out those, or partners can come and say, hey, what about us?

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah, we, we often, when we allocate our funding, do a solicitation process.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And so We will create a solicitation that says these are our goals and priorities for this funding, and then people will, will bring us their projects and apply.

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<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Great, thank you.

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<v Michael Anderson>Yeah.

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<v Candace Avalos>All right, I am next in the queue.

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<v Candace Avalos>Thanks again.

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<v Candace Avalos>We all know that Portland is continuing to face a significant shortage of affordable housing, and one of the biggest barriers to getting projects built or preserved is access to So I see today's ordinance as adding another financial tool to our toolbox.

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<v Candace Avalos>And this action, while it appropriates the $35 million federal award, it's important that we remember that the Section 8— Section 108 program is not a traditional grant.

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<v Candace Avalos>So it's only allowing the city to borrow federally guaranteed funds and then relend them to affordable housing projects over time.

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<v Candace Avalos>So I do think that used responsibly, this can help stretch our local resources and make more affordable housing projects financially feasible.

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<v Candace Avalos>But at the same time, because the city is ultimately responsible for repayment, I think it's important that we understand how PHB plans to manage both the opportunities and the risks with the program.

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00:41:58.414 --> 00:42:03.311
<v Candace Avalos>So you mentioned that PHB previously operated a Section 108 loan fund.

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<v Candace Avalos>Can you just talk me through what lessons from that experience are informing how this new program is going to be structured?

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00:42:09.623 --> 00:42:11.021
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah, thank you for your question.

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00:42:11.391 --> 00:42:14.728
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I appreciate that you made it also very clear that this is a loan.

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00:42:14.842 --> 00:42:17.360
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>This is not a grant to the city.

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00:42:17.505 --> 00:42:18.836
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>This is a loan to the city.

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00:42:19.976 --> 00:42:38.699
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And so one of the things we're thinking about structuring this time is that we loan these funds to the project at the same interest rate and with the same term that matches the loan from HUD to the city so that repayment is more assured.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>In addition to that, we will—.

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00:42:40.947 --> 00:42:41.139
<v Rebecca Dobert>Thank you.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We plan to set aside part of our annual CDBG entitlement that comes to the city to help fund any gaps that might happen or lags in payment from the borrowers.

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<v Candace Avalos>And how do you envision this financing tool complementing PHP's existing affordable housing programs rather than duplicating them?

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00:43:02.902 --> 00:43:17.070
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah, so, um, I think it could I think, you know, I could imagine this complementing PSEF funds to do preservation projects.

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00:43:17.248 --> 00:43:21.306
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So it's providing a low-interest loan, less than what the market provides.

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00:43:21.739 --> 00:43:26.773
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And in addition to that, some PSEF funds that support specific energy upgrades.

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<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I might have forgotten the second part of your question.

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00:43:33.340 --> 00:43:33.534
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I'm sorry.

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00:43:33.632 --> 00:43:40.929
<v Candace Avalos>I was just curious if you could talk about yeah, I was just asking in general how we felt that we were complementing our existing programs.

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00:43:41.106 --> 00:43:41.827
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah, thanks.

398
00:43:42.965 --> 00:43:56.378
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Traditionally, PHB provides cash flow contingent subordinate loans to its— to our affordable housing projects, and those funds recycle over time.

399
00:43:57.387 --> 00:44:02.925
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And this will be just like a little bit different because It will be a loan instead of a cash flow contingent loan.

400
00:44:03.510 --> 00:44:05.768
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>It'll be a hard debt, likely in first position.

401
00:44:07.387 --> 00:44:15.327
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And so traditionally, PHB's funding is sort of behind your first mortgage position.

402
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:18.273
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So it's layered with that.

403
00:44:18.822 --> 00:44:23.985
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And in this case, the Section 108 Loan Guarantee Program will take the first position.

404
00:44:24.518 --> 00:44:29.559
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So it doesn't allow for quite as many layering opportunities other than funds like PSF.

405
00:44:31.724 --> 00:44:37.717
<v Candace Avalos>And what gap in the current affordable housing financing market do you believe this loan fund is intended to fill?

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00:44:39.112 --> 00:44:52.768
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I think we've come through a period of having Portland and Metro bond funds for many years, which helped to create thousands of new affordable units in our community.

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00:44:53.512 --> 00:45:11.784
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And now we've allocated all of those and so this $35 million from HUD will help fill that gap to preserve our existing projects from sort of this period of new construction that we've been in to until we have our next housing resource.

408
00:45:13.818 --> 00:45:14.400
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you so much.

409
00:45:14.449 --> 00:45:25.831
<v Candace Avalos>Yeah, again, I think it's just important that the city, because we're ultimately responsible for repayment, that we're just seeing how we're managing yes.

410
00:45:25.945 --> 00:45:27.327
<v Candace Avalos>And of course ongoing oversight.

411
00:45:27.407 --> 00:45:39.862
<v Candace Avalos>So I'll be interested to track how this program is performing over time, both in terms of the affordable homes that it helps create and preserve, or how effectively it's leveraging the federal financing while protecting the city's financial interests.

412
00:45:39.925 --> 00:45:46.735
<v Candace Avalos>But appreciate the work that's gone into securing this opportunity, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it helps our affordable housing goals.

413
00:45:48.119 --> 00:45:50.166
<v Candace Avalos>Next up, we've got Councilor Pirtle-Guiney.

414
00:45:51.197 --> 00:46:05.226
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you, Chair, and thank you for moving us into that line of questioning about how this— we are calling it a grant in this posting, but it's really a loan— will actually work for the city.

415
00:46:07.021 --> 00:46:12.981
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I want to dig into a few things that you all said in response to questions asked by the Chair.

416
00:46:14.978 --> 00:46:17.425
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And, and a few things in the presentation itself.

417
00:46:17.472 --> 00:46:23.114
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So in the presentation, you say that you expect to fund a pipeline of projects over a 5-year period.

418
00:46:24.202 --> 00:46:25.356
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Mm-hmm.

419
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:49.563
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So with the repayment that we will have to make of this loan, is the goal to only cycle through these funds one time before we have to repay them, or is the hope that we will fund projects be repaid on the loans for those projects and then be able to fund additional projects and get a few cycles through before we need to repay the federal government?

420
00:46:50.061 --> 00:47:01.637
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah, I, I think that we will only be able to get through one cycle, but I would have to like dig into the loan agreement with HUD to be able to understand that a little bit better.

421
00:47:02.023 --> 00:47:17.027
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay, and you said that the The loans will be given from the city to local either developers or owners at whatever the terms are that we receive.

422
00:47:17.106 --> 00:47:22.748
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So what is that term and at what interest rate will we be lending this money?

423
00:47:23.501 --> 00:47:30.278
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah, it's floating and it's based on indices that HUD sets.

424
00:47:30.873 --> 00:47:33.443
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And so I can't tell you.

425
00:47:33.925 --> 00:47:38.420
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Can you tell us the range just so that we know what to expect here?

426
00:47:38.742 --> 00:47:42.934
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah, sorry, my subject matter expert is coming up to help me.

427
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:45.391
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Fantastic.

428
00:47:45.648 --> 00:47:50.385
<v Steve Novick>Hi, um, uh, Councilor Pirtle-Guiney, my name is Kara Hamilton with the Portland Housing Bureau.

429
00:47:50.530 --> 00:47:57.355
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Um, so the, uh, the floating rate is the 3-month Treasury auction bill rate plus 35 basis points.

430
00:47:58.054 --> 00:48:05.856
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So right now that's about 4.17%, so significantly lower than a for-profit lender would be lending at.

431
00:48:06.536 --> 00:48:12.693
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay, so the benefit here for the community really is in receiving a lower interest rate.

432
00:48:14.452 --> 00:48:16.050
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>They're not forgivable loans.

433
00:48:16.226 --> 00:48:20.172
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We are not able to extend the loan period over a longer period of time.

434
00:48:20.288 --> 00:48:26.246
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>It is really just access to that federal interest rate that we're able to provide through this process.

435
00:48:26.309 --> 00:48:26.887
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Is that—.

436
00:48:27.175 --> 00:48:27.784
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>That's correct.

437
00:48:27.914 --> 00:48:41.436
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We, we could choose to do a longer term than what the city has with HUD, but our recommendations are that we stay consistent with what the term is between the— in, in the agreement between city and HUD.

438
00:48:41.869 --> 00:48:42.878
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And that's a 20-year term.

439
00:48:43.954 --> 00:48:47.306
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And can you speak a little bit to the CBDG repayment?

440
00:48:47.402 --> 00:48:50.675
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>It makes me a little bit nervous to hear that.

441
00:48:50.820 --> 00:49:03.954
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So I'd like to hear both what within the CBDG-funded projects we would be doing less of and how much you think we will need to pull from that source.

442
00:49:04.376 --> 00:49:23.820
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And then I guess a secondary question to those, do we expect then as payments presumably catch up to be able to, recapitalize the CDBG fund with those excess payments, or would those additional dollars go somewhere else?

443
00:49:24.532 --> 00:49:32.969
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Or do we expect that there won't be excess payments because we're assuming some amount of loan not being repaid?

444
00:49:34.126 --> 00:49:42.619
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah, I think our goal, the way I think of this, is that we are forward allocating our CDBG, right?

445
00:49:42.682 --> 00:49:50.175
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We are sort of We, the city, will be borrowing against our future CDBG allocation.

446
00:49:51.572 --> 00:50:08.181
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And so I think of being able to do more preservation projects or acquisition projects in a shorter amount of time rather than waiting for our CDBG annual entitlement to sort of grow to a place where we can do a number of projects.

447
00:50:08.309 --> 00:50:09.304
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you.

448
00:50:10.405 --> 00:50:20.422
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>But we will— we, we have talked to our finance department, who's also here, just in case we need some more support or you have more finance-related questions.

449
00:50:20.938 --> 00:50:34.369
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We have planned to set aside some of our annual CDBG entitlement as a reserve in case we need those funds to help pay back HUD.

450
00:50:35.893 --> 00:50:40.797
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And what won't we be doing with CDBG because of that?

451
00:50:41.244 --> 00:50:45.251
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah, so typically we use CDBG for preservation projects.

452
00:50:46.085 --> 00:50:56.373
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So we will be doing preservation, more preservation projects sooner than if we wait and did 'em just through our annual entitlement.

453
00:50:57.527 --> 00:51:06.277
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We also use some of our CDBG for some of our single-family homeownership programs, and those won't be impacted by this.

454
00:51:08.050 --> 00:51:23.577
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So in terms of the risk to other programs at the city, the plan within the bureau is to absorb that risk within the portion of our CBDG funds that are funding similar work.

455
00:51:23.675 --> 00:51:24.309
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Correct.

456
00:51:24.632 --> 00:51:45.840
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So we are betting on having— we are risking having a little less in the future, in order to front-load for a need that is in crisis right now, but the bureau's plan is to make sure to protect other programs both within CBDG and outside of CBDG.

457
00:51:46.786 --> 00:52:05.860
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We shouldn't see an impact in any other part of our funding portfolio other than the potential for a small impact in the future yes, I would say that that is our goal and our intention, and that's accurate.

458
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:10.472
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay, I'm comfortable with that intent moving forward.

459
00:52:10.570 --> 00:52:10.956
<v Michael Anderson>Thank you.

460
00:52:11.134 --> 00:52:13.760
<v Candace Avalos>Yeah, Vice Chair Green.

461
00:52:16.114 --> 00:52:16.902
<v Mitch Green>Thank you, Chair Avalos.

462
00:52:17.161 --> 00:52:19.356
<v Mitch Green>Uh, thank you so much for securing the grant.

463
00:52:19.913 --> 00:52:23.335
<v Mitch Green>Um, couldn't come at a better possible time.

464
00:52:23.632 --> 00:52:30.800
<v Mitch Green>And so I just want to uplift the work that folks in the Bureau are always doing to look for ways to secure external resources, even if they are loans.

465
00:52:30.849 --> 00:52:36.949
<v Mitch Green>They are liquidity tools that come from the federal government that are important parts of the mix.

466
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:52.985
<v Mitch Green>I guess, I mean, this is a slam dunk for me, but I will take the opportunity to ask, do you see this as maybe an opportunity to braid with some of the other Debt buydown funds that council's already secured?

467
00:52:53.034 --> 00:53:18.300
<v Mitch Green>Because this seems like if we're targeting the act, the sort of whole portfolio of properties out there that are months away, a year away from basically going into receivership if we don't take action, do you see this really targeting that and then maybe using an opportunity to take this grant and braid together some of the stuff Council secured as a way to kind of really leverage something?

468
00:53:18.974 --> 00:53:20.547
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah, thanks for the question.

469
00:53:21.461 --> 00:53:23.068
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We actually considered that.

470
00:53:23.389 --> 00:53:48.063
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We considered putting some of this funding out with the rent— with the mortgage and rent buydown that Council passed back in April and decided that we need more time to figure out the implementation, and we really want to connect this more to the unified housing strategy that will also be coming before the council soon.

471
00:53:48.672 --> 00:54:05.226
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And so we— and because there is such a need in the affordable housing community right now, we decided to get that $8.8 million out as quickly as possible and do this as like a second step later this year or early next year.

472
00:54:05.773 --> 00:54:06.527
<v Mitch Green>I think that's the right call.

473
00:54:08.436 --> 00:54:17.831
<v Mitch Green>These are not all going to come at once too, and you want to do some due diligence when you evaluate how to rank order these things and do triage.

474
00:54:20.349 --> 00:54:20.447
<v Kari Mosden>Yes.

475
00:54:20.494 --> 00:54:32.106
<v Mitch Green>I appreciated the discussion up here about kind of the, in some sense, the counterparty risk that is present where we borrow from the government, then lend on behalf of the city.

476
00:54:33.106 --> 00:54:33.827
<v Mitch Green>Well, yeah.

477
00:54:34.106 --> 00:54:37.827
<v Mitch Green>Anyway, there's that chain of kind of lending and underwriting essentially that's happening here.

478
00:54:38.775 --> 00:54:41.324
<v Mitch Green>Any questions I would've had have been answered in that.

479
00:54:41.485 --> 00:54:51.849
<v Mitch Green>Appreciated Councilor Pirtle-Guiney's question about sort of making sure we were mindful of the previously standing mission and goal there.

480
00:54:52.025 --> 00:54:53.422
<v Mitch Green>So I feel comfortable with this.

481
00:54:53.534 --> 00:54:56.918
<v Mitch Green>I want to thank you for your work in securing this.

482
00:54:57.063 --> 00:54:58.699
<v Mitch Green>This is a sizable and meaningful—.

483
00:54:58.909 --> 00:54:59.806
<v Mitch Green>Thank you.

484
00:55:00.539 --> 00:55:05.681
<v Mitch Green>Line of liquidity that we can use to support, um, what is an increasingly urgent problem.

485
00:55:05.762 --> 00:55:07.222
<v Mitch Green>So thank you, I'm going to support it.

486
00:55:11.547 --> 00:55:13.097
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you, Vice Chair Green.

487
00:55:14.405 --> 00:55:21.978
<v Candace Avalos>All right, I don't see anyone else in the queue, so if we're ready, we can go ahead and move forward.

488
00:55:22.155 --> 00:55:26.367
<v Candace Avalos>Um, I would like to apologize here we go.

489
00:55:27.010 --> 00:55:35.032
<v Candace Avalos>I'd like to entertain a motion to move the ordinance document number 2026-272 to the full council with a recommendation to pass.

490
00:55:35.643 --> 00:55:36.110
<v Mitch Green>So moved.

491
00:55:36.416 --> 00:55:36.965
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Second.

492
00:55:37.465 --> 00:55:41.233
<v Candace Avalos>Moved by Councilor Novick, seconded by Councilor Pirtle-Guiney.

493
00:55:41.976 --> 00:55:43.070
<v Candace Avalos>Diego, please go ahead and call the roll.

494
00:55:47.889 --> 00:55:48.306
<v Koyama Lane>Koyama Lane.

495
00:55:49.255 --> 00:55:49.405
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Aye.

496
00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:50.572
<v Koyama Lane>Novick.

497
00:55:52.309 --> 00:55:52.356
<v Steve Novick>Aye.

498
00:55:54.661 --> 00:55:54.742
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Aye.

499
00:55:55.887 --> 00:55:55.902
<v Koyama Lane>Aye.

500
00:55:56.434 --> 00:55:56.547
<v Candace Avalos>Aye.

501
00:55:57.304 --> 00:55:57.530
<v Koyama Lane>Avalos?

502
00:55:58.289 --> 00:55:58.320
<v Candace Avalos>Aye.

503
00:55:59.094 --> 00:56:08.019
<v Koyama Lane>With 5 ayes, the motion carries and the ordinance document number 2026-272 will move to the full council with a recommendation it be passed.

504
00:56:08.635 --> 00:56:09.201
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you for your time.

505
00:56:09.282 --> 00:56:10.010
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you.

506
00:56:11.498 --> 00:56:21.092
<v Candace Avalos>So colleagues, we are a bit ahead of schedule and so I'm concerned that maybe our I think one of our guests might not be here, so could I get a check on that?

507
00:56:21.284 --> 00:56:22.461
<v Candace Avalos>Claire, do you have an update on that?

508
00:56:25.213 --> 00:56:26.882
<v Ian Crozier>For the single-cert design competition?

509
00:56:26.929 --> 00:56:27.190
<v Ian Crozier>Mm-hmm.

510
00:56:28.275 --> 00:56:30.202
<v Ian Crozier>We are not quite all assembled.

511
00:56:30.380 --> 00:56:31.579
<v Ian Crozier>We're maybe 10 minutes.

512
00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:33.847
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, well then why don't we go ahead and take our break now?

513
00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:39.867
<v Candace Avalos>Um, let's just, uh, how about we give it until 3:05 just to give ourselves a little more time?

514
00:56:40.463 --> 00:56:41.155
<v Candace Avalos>See you at 3:05.

515
00:56:41.349 --> 00:56:41.590
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you.

516
01:15:38.033 --> 01:15:43.945
<v Candace Avalos>All right, we are returning to the Housing and Permitting Committee.

517
01:15:44.219 --> 01:15:46.515
<v Candace Avalos>Diego, go ahead and read item 18.

518
01:15:47.657 --> 01:15:54.791
<v Unidentified speaker>Item 18, document number 2026-273, PNW Single Stair Design Competition.

519
01:15:55.787 --> 01:16:04.029
<v Candace Avalos>All right, so Vice Chair Green and I have invited Portland Neighbors Welcome and their partners to tell us about a single stair design competition that they recently organized.

520
01:16:04.463 --> 01:16:11.033
<v Candace Avalos>The competition is part of a broader initiative focused on mid-rise housing development and single-stair building code changes.

521
01:16:11.774 --> 01:16:22.694
<v Candace Avalos>And our intent here is to just talk openly about these kinds of innovative ideas and see how they fit into our broader housing discussion and vision as a committee.

522
01:16:22.935 --> 01:16:26.027
<v Candace Avalos>So with that, presenters, please introduce yourselves and take it away.

523
01:16:29.903 --> 01:16:30.345
<v Ian Crozier>Well, thank you.

524
01:16:31.229 --> 01:16:33.408
<v Ian Crozier>We're here representing Portland Neighbors Welcome.

525
01:16:33.622 --> 01:16:35.261
<v Ian Crozier>And Strongtowns PDX.

526
01:16:35.552 --> 01:16:40.644
<v Ian Crozier>We'll be talking a little bit about single stair reform and highlighting the recent design competition.

527
01:16:41.783 --> 01:16:42.865
<v Ian Crozier>And it's a real pleasure to be here.

528
01:16:42.913 --> 01:16:43.900
<v Ian Crozier>My name is Ian Crozier.

529
01:16:44.029 --> 01:16:45.743
<v Ian Crozier>I'm a volunteer with Portland Neighbors Welcome.

530
01:16:46.779 --> 01:16:47.474
<v Michael Anderson>Michael Anderson.

531
01:16:47.587 --> 01:16:49.640
<v Michael Anderson>I'm with Sightline Institute.

532
01:16:50.917 --> 01:16:51.436
<v Wes Ayers>And I'm Wes Harris.

533
01:16:51.485 --> 01:16:52.569
<v Wes Ayers>I'm with Harris Design Build.

534
01:16:54.061 --> 01:16:55.023
<v Ian Crozier>And Michael's going to kick it off.

535
01:16:55.445 --> 01:16:56.015
<v Michael Anderson>Yeah, thanks.

536
01:16:57.466 --> 01:17:11.176
<v Michael Anderson>So I'm here to talk about the sort of Context of how we got here, and then I'll hand off to Ian, who's going to talk about why this is all a good idea to think about, talk about, and then Wes is going to talk about some of the practicalities.

537
01:17:11.291 --> 01:17:12.605
<v Michael Anderson>I think in general is the idea.

538
01:17:14.295 --> 01:17:31.507
<v Michael Anderson>The national context of this is changing every month, but the states highlighted here have all passed some version of legalizing single stair codes, that is to say small multifamily buildings.

539
01:17:32.984 --> 01:17:33.827
<v Michael Anderson>We'll get into that in a bit.

540
01:17:34.378 --> 01:17:37.006
<v Michael Anderson>Above 3 stories, including as local options.

541
01:17:37.444 --> 01:17:39.989
<v Michael Anderson>And then various cities have also directly passed these.

542
01:17:40.038 --> 01:17:47.877
<v Michael Anderson>And some, in some cases, there's a local option passed by the state, and in some cases, the state has simply said, no, we're gonna legalize these throughout the state.

543
01:17:48.216 --> 01:17:51.420
<v Michael Anderson>This is a change to the building codes that allow this type of building.

544
01:17:53.309 --> 01:18:04.875
<v Michael Anderson>The sort of model for how people started talking about this concept was something that we've been doing in Seattle, that has been happening in Seattle for decades.

545
01:18:04.922 --> 01:18:16.969
<v Michael Anderson>Since 1977, the city added a sort of code option that lets buildings up to 6 stories be built around a single staircase.

546
01:18:17.622 --> 01:18:23.132
<v Michael Anderson>With various safety measures above and beyond what you would see in a standard building.

547
01:18:23.550 --> 01:18:44.418
<v Michael Anderson>And it's happening all over town on these small lots where you can fit not a large building like you might see along Powell Boulevard today, but just a pretty small-scale, neighborhood-scale building that, unlike a lot of large apartment buildings, actually has windows facing on multiple sides.

548
01:18:44.756 --> 01:18:46.036
<v Michael Anderson>We'll get into the benefits of that in a bit.

549
01:18:46.471 --> 01:18:48.203
<v Michael Anderson>But the model really here is Seattle.

550
01:18:48.576 --> 01:18:55.382
<v Michael Anderson>Another city that's even closer to home, Vancouver, Washington, allowed to create a special building code path for these just a few months ago.

551
01:18:57.689 --> 01:19:07.618
<v Michael Anderson>Portland's story starts sort of on this in 2023 when the Oregon Legislature ordered the state to encourage sunlight suites through building code reforms.

552
01:19:08.212 --> 01:19:09.649
<v Michael Anderson>And they left that somewhat open-ended.

553
01:19:09.698 --> 01:19:12.159
<v Michael Anderson>And so it was up to the Uh, thank you.

554
01:19:12.159 --> 01:19:13.899
<v Michael Anderson>So in 2014, the state issued an ordinance asking the state to settle on the code for that.

555
01:19:13.899 --> 01:19:14.880
<v Michael Anderson>It did.

556
01:19:14.880 --> 01:19:22.140
<v Michael Anderson>In 2025, the state added a 4-story sunlight suite option in Appendix Q of the state's building code.

557
01:19:23.000 --> 01:19:26.560
<v Michael Anderson>The building code, as usual, was adopted by the City of Portland.

558
01:19:26.880 --> 01:19:32.949
<v Michael Anderson>This is last November, and the City of Portland issued a news release that said, hooray, we've got this new option, uh, this is great.

559
01:19:33.199 --> 01:19:46.304
<v Michael Anderson>And a week later, the Fire Bureau said in the Daily Journal of Commerce that actually these buildings wouldn't get what is a standard option for roof access that other multifamily buildings have typically gotten.

560
01:19:46.448 --> 01:19:57.987
<v Michael Anderson>Obviously, roof access is very important in a fire, no disputing that, but the ways to do that are unusually limited for this type of building under the current codes in Portland.

561
01:19:59.078 --> 01:20:04.887
<v Michael Anderson>Since then, there's been no further action, and no buildings have been built or proposed, to my knowledge.

562
01:20:04.952 --> 01:20:05.081
<v Michael Anderson>Thank you.

563
01:20:05.481 --> 01:20:15.122
<v Michael Anderson>Using the new code, and it's not entirely clear they could be because of that special restriction that applies only to this building type that the city has been, you know, seemingly trying to legalize.

564
01:20:15.252 --> 01:20:16.703
<v Michael Anderson>So we are here to call attention to that somewhat.

565
01:20:18.645 --> 01:20:28.730
<v Michael Anderson>Meanwhile, the future is that in 2027, the next national model building code is expected to allow 4-story sunlight suites.

566
01:20:29.219 --> 01:20:31.497
<v Michael Anderson>So it's actually slightly more liberal.

567
01:20:31.578 --> 01:20:31.707
<v Michael Anderson>Thank you.

568
01:20:31.832 --> 01:20:43.161
<v Michael Anderson>Than our state code has allowed the city to be, there's possibility that not only will Portland not be ahead of that curve, it'll end up behind that curve if no further action is taken.

569
01:20:49.422 --> 01:20:49.988
<v Michael Anderson>Thank you, Michael.

570
01:20:52.471 --> 01:20:54.229
<v Ian Crozier>So why single-story buildings?

571
01:20:54.971 --> 01:20:58.509
<v Ian Crozier>It's a funny, nerdy yeah.

572
01:20:58.829 --> 01:21:01.239
<v Ian Crozier>It's a very little change that can unlock a lot.

573
01:21:01.448 --> 01:21:08.054
<v Ian Crozier>The way I like to think about it is that there's a way that they build apartment buildings in pretty much the whole rest of the world, and there's a way that we do it here.

574
01:21:08.456 --> 01:21:18.779
<v Ian Crozier>And the way that we do it here can reduce the amount of ventilation available, reduces the amount of daylight that can be accessed from most units because you're only getting windows usually on one side of a unit.

575
01:21:18.859 --> 01:21:25.783
<v Ian Crozier>If you visited someone's or live in a recently built apartment building, you're probably familiar that it's It can be a very long, narrow, dark corridor.

576
01:21:28.069 --> 01:21:34.479
<v Ian Crozier>And, but a single stair building, by nature of having more surface area relative to the floor area, can have windows on many sides.

577
01:21:36.329 --> 01:21:40.898
<v Ian Crozier>Like I said, this is the way they build apartment buildings in almost everywhere else in the world.

578
01:21:41.430 --> 01:21:52.368
<v Ian Crozier>The beautiful streets of Paris where you walk down and there's a perimeter, or many European cities, a perimeter line of buildings with many different openings, those are single stair buildings.

579
01:21:53.722 --> 01:22:04.779
<v Ian Crozier>The way they build in Japan and Australia and all over South America is based around this single stair idea as well, which also includes elevators, we should add.

580
01:22:04.893 --> 01:22:07.788
<v Ian Crozier>It's not just the stair, it's a single stair with an elevator.

581
01:22:08.210 --> 01:22:11.127
<v Ian Crozier>United States and Canada are outliers in this regard.

582
01:22:11.403 --> 01:22:18.368
<v Ian Crozier>United States generally just allowing up to 3 stories, and Canada even worse, unusually allowing just 2 stories.

583
01:22:19.231 --> 01:22:20.024
<v Ian Crozier>With a single stair.

584
01:22:22.980 --> 01:22:35.747
<v Ian Crozier>Like Michael said, and like Wes will say, will help dig into, the typical apartment building that we're all familiar with is a large building.

585
01:22:36.457 --> 01:22:39.724
<v Ian Crozier>You see them on commercial corridors very often because they need large sites.

586
01:22:39.788 --> 01:22:41.277
<v Ian Crozier>They have, it's a double-loaded corridor.

587
01:22:41.875 --> 01:22:44.689
<v Ian Crozier>It's like a, sort of like a sardine.

588
01:22:44.867 --> 01:22:50.822
<v Ian Crozier>You've got a central spine and you've got, Rooms that are like narrow ribs coming off on either side.

589
01:22:51.404 --> 01:22:53.833
<v Ian Crozier>It's a long walk to the elevator.

590
01:22:54.310 --> 01:23:02.328
<v Ian Crozier>Those corridors are eerie and have no windows and can feel antisocial.

591
01:23:04.247 --> 01:23:13.725
<v Ian Crozier>And while there are 2 stairwells, they are shared by a very large number of units, and it may be a long walk down the hallway to get one in the case of a fire.

592
01:23:15.029 --> 01:23:23.925
<v Ian Crozier>A single-stair building, or point access block is another term, allows it to be much easier, like we said, to have rooms with cross ventilation.

593
01:23:24.037 --> 01:23:26.413
<v Ian Crozier>It's a short distance to get to the stairs and elevators.

594
01:23:27.313 --> 01:23:29.431
<v Ian Crozier>And then these buildings are much more flexible.

595
01:23:29.479 --> 01:23:31.680
<v Ian Crozier>They can be skinnier buildings.

596
01:23:32.612 --> 01:23:36.305
<v Ian Crozier>A double-loaded corridor, often 70, 80, 90 feet wide.

597
01:23:36.417 --> 01:23:39.306
<v Ian Crozier>A single-stair building might just be 30 or 40 feet wide.

598
01:23:39.841 --> 01:23:43.177
<v Ian Crozier>And therefore, they can fit on a much greater variety of lots.

599
01:23:46.579 --> 01:23:56.881
<v Ian Crozier>Michael Eliason, who founded Larch Lab, created these graphics and has led much of the movement to raise awareness around this building typology.

600
01:23:58.060 --> 01:24:03.886
<v Ian Crozier>One of the important things also to note is that single stair can work much better for family-sized apartment buildings.

601
01:24:04.404 --> 01:24:09.248
<v Ian Crozier>Works fine for studios, but it also can work well for live-work units, 2 bedrooms, 3 bedrooms, and even larger.

602
01:24:11.823 --> 01:24:17.765
<v Ian Crozier>And also creative combinations of those where it's not all just the same product, one size fits all.

603
01:24:21.256 --> 01:24:36.418
<v Ian Crozier>With all that, it's been quite inspiring, and we at Portland Neighbors Welcome wanted to explore these ideas, these really exciting benefits of this building typology, and see what it would look like in Portland.

604
01:24:37.027 --> 01:24:47.072
<v Ian Crozier>And so for that reason, we, working with Strong Towns PDX, organized a design competition around single-stair residential buildings for here in Portland, Oregon.

605
01:24:51.604 --> 01:25:08.220
<v Ian Crozier>The competition is open to architecture students in Oregon and Washington and tasked them with building a 6-floor single-stair residential building, so much— so taller than what would be allowed in Oregon today under the under the Oregon Building Code with up to 4 units per floor.

606
01:25:09.649 --> 01:25:29.252
<v Ian Crozier>They would meet the criteria of having a district-scaled approach, be resilient in a world of a changing climate and with predictable natural disasters, would be sustainable, it would help affordability, and be compatible with modular construction technology that can be made offsite.

607
01:25:30.503 --> 01:25:47.061
<v Ian Crozier>We received 6 submissions from student teams, all of whom are architecture students at the University of Oregon, and they were tasked with choosing one of 4 5,000-square-foot lots in the Inner East Side for their design.

608
01:25:48.440 --> 01:25:56.359
<v Ian Crozier>Something we want to highlight, that these were lots— these lots for their designs were located in the Inner East Side, Yes.

609
01:25:56.712 --> 01:25:58.605
<v Ian Crozier>Portland Neighbors Welcome and Strong Towns.

610
01:25:59.503 --> 01:26:03.145
<v Ian Crozier>You may recall we are very excited about Inner Eastside for All.

611
01:26:03.193 --> 01:26:09.753
<v Ian Crozier>We think it's an incredibly important policy for the city of Portland in terms of sustainability, affordability, and equity.

612
01:26:10.091 --> 01:26:16.250
<v Ian Crozier>And if zoning were to get out of the way, allowing housing in a part of the city that's transit and amenity rich.

613
01:26:17.324 --> 01:26:30.652
<v Ian Crozier>At the same time, the zoning change is not going to achieve its potential if we are not able to also address other barriers to infill housing in dense, in built-up parts of the city with small lots.

614
01:26:30.957 --> 01:26:36.016
<v Ian Crozier>So we see single stair reform and Inner Eastside for All as two sides of the same coin.

615
01:26:37.037 --> 01:26:39.340
<v Ian Crozier>And that's a big motivation for the competition.

616
01:26:40.850 --> 01:26:58.753
<v Ian Crozier>The competition with the committee organizers, including myself, RJ Shepherd, Colleen Dixon, Victoria Villa, and Lee Shelton and Sam Stuckey, we helped organize tours of different buildings around town to help inspire the students.

617
01:26:59.315 --> 01:27:12.358
<v Ian Crozier>Several of the student teams were also in a concurrent class at University of Oregon, so they got to work with their professor on their designs as well and produced these beautiful physical models to accompany their designs.

618
01:27:12.774 --> 01:27:23.162
<v Ian Crozier>Some of us from the committee, as well as some of the professional mentors, that were recruited to help guide the students throughout the process were able to attend the review.

619
01:27:23.355 --> 01:27:30.208
<v Ian Crozier>And so it was quite wonderful to hear the students, the reasoning behind their designs, and see the models.

620
01:27:31.036 --> 01:27:33.774
<v Ian Crozier>And even they created videos to accompany the posters.

621
01:27:36.449 --> 01:28:02.855
<v Ian Crozier>The competition kicked off with a kickoff event featuring Michael Eliason, the architect who's based in Seattle, who drew from his experience working in Germany and the United States to start raising awareness about single stair or point access blocks a few years ago, and has been really leading the charge to get people around the country to care about this extremely nerdy building code detail, but in its huge potential for changing and improving how we build housing in the US.

622
01:28:04.381 --> 01:28:12.211
<v Ian Crozier>And then we concluded the design competition with awards ceremony on May 28th, Yes.

623
01:28:12.259 --> 01:28:13.650
<v Ian Crozier>Which was a really fun event.

624
01:28:15.091 --> 01:28:28.940
<v Ian Crozier>It brought together a broad cross-section of people who care about housing and affordability and design, from professional architects and planners, the students and their friends, members of the organizations, and then just folks who heard about it online.

625
01:28:28.989 --> 01:28:30.947
<v Ian Crozier>And they were all there together having conversations.

626
01:28:33.029 --> 01:28:41.819
<v Ian Crozier>We got to announce the awards at the ceremony based on the scoring of our interdisciplinary jury, which included Councilor Green.

627
01:28:44.801 --> 01:28:56.265
<v Ian Crozier>Along with Planning Commission Chair Steph Ruth and Michael Liasson and a lot of the leading lights in the architecture and housing scene in Portland.

628
01:28:57.487 --> 01:29:07.650
<v Ian Crozier>Really, we were just really grateful for the contributions and of the time and thoughtfulness that from everyone in the jury went into it.

629
01:29:09.123 --> 01:29:17.577
<v Ian Crozier>And we are— we also want to just celebrate and appreciate the beautiful designs the student teams produced.

630
01:29:18.826 --> 01:29:21.055
<v Ian Crozier>I mean, we're just gonna go through 3 of them now.

631
01:29:21.329 --> 01:29:32.521
<v Ian Crozier>You should have, hopefully, all of the submissions in your agenda packet, and they're also available online.

632
01:29:32.587 --> 01:29:33.494
<v Ian Crozier>I see some hands up.

633
01:29:34.193 --> 01:29:34.970
<v Ian Crozier>Should I pause for these?

634
01:29:35.020 --> 01:29:35.068
<v Ian Crozier>Yeah.

635
01:29:35.603 --> 01:29:35.828
<v Ian Crozier>Okay.

636
01:29:36.969 --> 01:29:39.828
<v Ian Crozier>Don't know about normal Zoom protocol here in council chambers.

637
01:29:41.065 --> 01:29:41.259
<v Ian Crozier>Thank you.

638
01:29:41.323 --> 01:29:41.805
<v Ian Crozier>I'll continue.

639
01:29:41.868 --> 01:29:45.693
<v Ian Crozier>So the first place design was called Well on First.

640
01:29:45.742 --> 01:29:46.416
<v Candace Avalos>Apologies.

641
01:29:46.609 --> 01:29:48.279
<v Candace Avalos>Apparently, yes, we do have one quick question.

642
01:29:48.359 --> 01:29:48.681
<v Ian Crozier>Oh, great.

643
01:29:48.761 --> 01:29:49.180
<v Ian Crozier>Okay, cool.

644
01:29:49.421 --> 01:29:54.931
<v Mitch Green>Just as you get into these, could you say a little bit about the parameters that you wanted?

645
01:29:55.606 --> 01:29:58.627
<v Mitch Green>'Cause there's certain lot size parameters that are really important to this.

646
01:29:58.675 --> 01:30:04.421
<v Mitch Green>So if you could just sort of level set so everyone understands, like, Why those parameters were chosen, I think that can be helpful.

647
01:30:05.542 --> 01:30:05.846
<v Ian Crozier>Yes.

648
01:30:06.824 --> 01:30:09.085
<v Ian Crozier>And Wes will speak to that as well a little bit.

649
01:30:09.166 --> 01:30:15.786
<v Ian Crozier>But, and so yeah, so these, and you see, as you can see from this design, it's a compact building.

650
01:30:15.898 --> 01:30:23.351
<v Ian Crozier>And so that was part of the submission criteria was to design for one of these 5,000-square-foot lots.

651
01:30:23.431 --> 01:30:30.867
<v Ian Crozier>And 5,000 square foot being the key, that's by far the most common lot size in the inner east side of Portland.

652
01:30:31.807 --> 01:30:41.161
<v Ian Crozier>And it is much smaller than can be typically developed for multifamily development using conventional approaches.

653
01:30:42.755 --> 01:30:46.546
<v Ian Crozier>So, yes.

654
01:30:48.451 --> 01:30:58.904
<v Ian Crozier>They also were trying to meet the criteria of resilience, sustainability, the district scale, or where the— And then each one received a score based on those criteria.

655
01:31:01.243 --> 01:31:06.548
<v Ian Crozier>And yeah, and Wes will dig into the sort of the important economics around that lot size, I think, a little bit more.

656
01:31:07.587 --> 01:31:08.284
<v Ian Crozier>So thank you for the question.

657
01:31:10.090 --> 01:31:15.537
<v Ian Crozier>See, so this team, Richard, Juan, Colin, Jorge, created this really beautiful design.

658
01:31:15.586 --> 01:31:18.269
<v Ian Crozier>It emphasizes access to light and air.

659
01:31:19.041 --> 01:31:22.447
<v Ian Crozier>It's designed for cross-laminated timber construction.

660
01:31:22.750 --> 01:31:34.604
<v Ian Crozier>It has a variety of different unit layouts on different floors, but they have a sort of a vertical structure, these vertical structures system that is sort of same throughout, but works with the different layouts.

661
01:31:34.992 --> 01:31:45.569
<v Ian Crozier>And it's got a— their submission had just really lovely, clean visual style that did a great job highlighting the benefits of single stair design.

662
01:31:52.085 --> 01:31:56.548
<v Ian Crozier>Moving on to the— one of the second-place winners, Reframing.

663
01:31:57.127 --> 01:32:11.721
<v Ian Crozier>Their tagline was, Reframing proposes housing as a framework for care, and their design emphasized accessibility, universal design, aging in place, and accommodating multigenerational families that may include caregivers.

664
01:32:11.818 --> 01:32:20.552
<v Ian Crozier>They've got these cool adaptable layouts with connected studios, it's sort of like a house and a mother-in-law unit, except that's all on the same floor as an apartment building.

665
01:32:22.587 --> 01:32:24.953
<v Ian Crozier>They've got really these lovely, bright, warm graphics.

666
01:32:25.082 --> 01:32:26.176
<v Ian Crozier>I think I teared up a little bit.

667
01:32:26.305 --> 01:32:30.216
<v Ian Crozier>This is one of them that was quite moving when I was first going through and looking at them.

668
01:32:32.149 --> 01:32:35.434
<v Ian Crozier>And that is just really impressive work.

669
01:32:35.498 --> 01:32:39.706
<v Ian Crozier>You can see the blue images there on the top are yeah.

670
01:32:39.786 --> 01:32:49.451
<v Ian Crozier>Are different accessible designs to allow people with different levels of ability to do what they need to do in their home.

671
01:32:50.123 --> 01:32:52.368
<v Ian Crozier>Just one example of the really thoughtful work that went into it.

672
01:32:52.688 --> 01:32:56.887
<v Ian Crozier>Finally, the one I want— the last one I want to highlight is called Portland Access Block.

673
01:32:57.271 --> 01:32:59.532
<v Ian Crozier>That's a pun on the Point Access Block.

674
01:32:59.595 --> 01:33:06.536
<v Ian Crozier>This design by Anna, Danny, and Griff features reconfigurable layouts with a cross-laminated timber panel system.

675
01:33:06.744 --> 01:33:08.283
<v Ian Crozier>It emphasizes interactions.

676
01:33:08.814 --> 01:33:13.837
<v Ian Crozier>Social interaction with some shared porches and a mix of different unit sizes on the same floor.

677
01:33:14.271 --> 01:33:18.625
<v Ian Crozier>And the idea of getting people to talk to each other with different sort of household sizes.

678
01:33:20.836 --> 01:33:24.557
<v Ian Crozier>And an adaptability for shade, privacy, openness, and airflow.

679
01:33:26.676 --> 01:33:30.157
<v Ian Crozier>Like I said, there's 3 other designs that are also beautiful and excellent.

680
01:33:30.302 --> 01:33:31.890
<v Ian Crozier>I encourage you to check those out.

681
01:33:32.426 --> 01:33:35.488
<v Ian Crozier>We think these images are really important.

682
01:33:35.569 --> 01:33:35.926
<v Michael Anderson>Thank you.

683
01:33:36.069 --> 01:33:36.310
<v Steve Novick>Thank you.

684
01:33:36.310 --> 01:33:41.510
<v Ian Crozier>I think that we've all seen that these designs are an important and powerful tool for communicating about housing, a positive vision for housing in our city.

685
01:33:41.510 --> 01:33:46.880
<v Ian Crozier>It's human-centered, beautiful, abundant, and contributes positively to our neighborhoods.

686
01:33:47.850 --> 01:33:53.010
<v Ian Crozier>But these designs are intentionally very aspirational and hopefully inspirational.

687
01:33:53.010 --> 01:34:11.350
<v Ian Crozier>But in order to keep the thread today with the actual development conditions in the actual city of Portland and why single stair reform is so important for building housing in those actual conditions, we wanted to have Wes Ayers, a developer of small-scale housing here in Portland, share his knowledge about that.

688
01:34:12.307 --> 01:34:12.697
<v Ian Crozier>So thank you.

689
01:34:15.042 --> 01:34:15.573
<v Wes Ayers>Thank you, Ian.

690
01:34:16.167 --> 01:34:17.180
<v Wes Ayers>My name is Wes Ayers.

691
01:34:17.597 --> 01:34:26.250
<v Wes Ayers>I'm a principal at Ayers Design Build, and we help developers design and investors design and build medium and small-scale infill housing here in Portland.

692
01:34:26.297 --> 01:34:30.501
<v Wes Ayers>I'm familiar with small-scale development and single stair.

693
01:34:30.742 --> 01:34:44.009
<v Wes Ayers>So I'm here to give you some background on the economics of single stair buildings and how allowing taller street-scale apartment buildings on small infill lots can bring a lot more housing to the vibrant fabric of our historic mixed-use and urban neighborhoods.

694
01:34:45.391 --> 01:34:51.332
<v Wes Ayers>And I apologize in advance, the slides aren't totally aligned with what I'm going to say, but I think we got this.

695
01:34:52.460 --> 01:34:55.639
<v Steve Novick>So Portland's inner urban neighborhoods were platted about a century ago.

696
01:34:55.801 --> 01:35:01.434
<v Wes Ayers>They're small blocks, dense blocks, and a typical lot size, as Ian pointed out, is about 50 by 100 feet.

697
01:35:01.483 --> 01:35:01.515
<v Kevin Foster>Wow.

698
01:35:02.738 --> 01:35:07.177
<v Steve Novick>I think we're all familiar with the Northwest Alphabet District, Buckman, Hawthorne, Mississippi.

699
01:35:08.027 --> 01:35:15.480
<v Wes Ayers>Each has frequent transit, sidewalks, street trees, corner stores, vibrant restaurants, and errands can all be accomplished on foot or bike.

700
01:35:15.658 --> 01:35:26.702
<v Wes Ayers>Most of these neighborhoods already have old brick apartment buildings in them, and anyone who walks through Northwest Portland, Kerns or Buckman, has seen them mixed right in with all the foursquares and all the bungalows, right?

701
01:35:26.797 --> 01:35:28.128
<v Wes Ayers>And nobody feels that they're out of place.

702
01:35:28.979 --> 01:35:32.542
<v Steve Novick>So these buildings were legal when they were built and we stopped building them.

703
01:35:33.297 --> 01:35:37.648
<v Steve Novick>And the apartment buildings we build today don't fit on a typical Portland lot.

704
01:35:38.289 --> 01:35:39.542
<v Steve Novick>So why don't they fit?

705
01:35:40.521 --> 01:35:43.988
<v Steve Novick>The standard American apartment building is an archetype familiar here in Portland.

706
01:35:44.198 --> 01:35:48.034
<v Wes Ayers>It's a hallway down the middle, apartments on both sides, and a stair at each end.

707
01:35:48.212 --> 01:35:50.105
<v Wes Ayers>And we call that the double-loaded corridor.

708
01:35:51.502 --> 01:35:59.546
<v Wes Ayers>And it's an efficient layout that maximizes the number of units per floor while meeting all the fire and life safety requirements for that building type.

709
01:35:59.963 --> 01:36:07.917
<v Steve Novick>So each apartment has just enough natural light and it connects along a long hallway with 2 exit stairs and an elevator, as Ian described earlier.

710
01:36:08.528 --> 01:36:13.573
<v Steve Novick>So these apartment buildings are economically efficient and generally developed by large institutional investors.

711
01:36:13.765 --> 01:36:19.438
<v Wes Ayers>And if you've played the apartment game enough, which I have, there's a prototype, we stick to it.

712
01:36:20.354 --> 01:36:27.514
<v Wes Ayers>We try to play with this facade to keep things interesting, but for the most part, These buildings are spreadsheet-driven, right?

713
01:36:27.658 --> 01:36:31.684
<v Wes Ayers>And we're maximizing the number of units on each site.

714
01:36:32.725 --> 01:36:39.237
<v Wes Ayers>So they require about 55 or 60 feet in width to really maximize that double-loaded corridor.

715
01:36:40.471 --> 01:36:43.551
<v Wes Ayers>And so that's— and we're familiar with these buildings, right?

716
01:36:43.599 --> 01:36:51.288
<v Wes Ayers>We see 'em in Slabtown, we see 'em in the Pearl District, we see them along Division, we see them kind of at all these places yes.

717
01:36:51.654 --> 01:36:53.945
<v Wes Ayers>That, you know, we see these large apartment buildings.

718
01:36:55.119 --> 01:37:06.175
<v Steve Novick>And so the reality is that Portland's typical lot is relatively small, and we have already developed much of our inner city sort of large lot capacity.

719
01:37:06.239 --> 01:37:08.649
<v Wes Ayers>So those apartment buildings, they require large lots.

720
01:37:09.935 --> 01:37:11.637
<v Steve Novick>Most new large sites would be—.

721
01:37:11.926 --> 01:37:20.326
<v Wes Ayers>Need to be assembled from lots that already have people living on them, and the buildings that would need to come down to consolidate those lots will likely be older and less expensive.

722
01:37:20.373 --> 01:37:20.954
<v Wes Ayers>That's our naturally affordable housing.

723
01:37:22.899 --> 01:37:26.617
<v Steve Novick>So land value in Portland runs the way I think anybody here would expect.

724
01:37:27.033 --> 01:37:37.546
<v Wes Ayers>Our inner urban areas carry the highest land values, which means that consolidating lots in our transit-rich and commercially viable neighborhoods where everybody wants to live is an expensive endeavor.

725
01:37:37.643 --> 01:37:45.351
<v Steve Novick>So currently it's both so expensive and restrictive that very little, if almost no, new development's happening right now.

726
01:37:46.377 --> 01:37:52.338
<v Wes Ayers>So Portland's own housing needs analysis, which I think some of us are familiar with, calls for about 120,000 new homes.

727
01:37:53.296 --> 01:37:56.637
<v Wes Ayers>By 2045, and that's less than 20 years from now.

728
01:37:57.235 --> 01:38:01.159
<v Wes Ayers>And we're not building anywhere near at the rate in order to achieve that.

729
01:38:02.020 --> 01:38:07.738
<v Wes Ayers>So we'll have little chance of actually meeting that goal if we wait to assemble these lots, right, for these big apartments.

730
01:38:09.671 --> 01:38:10.979
<v Wes Ayers>And so we need a different strategy.

731
01:38:11.351 --> 01:38:18.135
<v Wes Ayers>And I think we need the ability to build residential density on the existing lots we have, but those lots are small.

732
01:38:19.328 --> 01:38:20.613
<v Steve Novick>So what fits?

733
01:38:21.190 --> 01:38:26.858
<v Steve Novick>Well, double-loaded quarters don't fit on small lots and are typically too wide to retain the economic efficiency.

734
01:38:28.173 --> 01:38:32.541
<v Steve Novick>The second stair and the connecting corridors erode the net available housing area for each floor.

735
01:38:33.150 --> 01:38:36.328
<v Wes Ayers>And then the fire code further restricts the distance between the 2 stairs.

736
01:38:36.426 --> 01:38:41.868
<v Wes Ayers>There's actually a minimum distance or a maximum or a minimum distance they're allowed to be to each other.

737
01:38:42.525 --> 01:38:45.335
<v Steve Novick>And the result is a building that's constricted by egress requirements.

738
01:38:45.918 --> 01:38:52.252
<v Wes Ayers>And the ability to— and they can only basically provide either smaller units, right?

739
01:38:52.399 --> 01:38:54.498
<v Wes Ayers>Or a limited number of units per floor.

740
01:38:57.194 --> 01:39:02.043
<v Wes Ayers>So this is kind of why we don't really see a lot of double-stair buildings on small sites.

741
01:39:02.108 --> 01:39:02.962
<v Wes Ayers>You just don't see them.

742
01:39:03.899 --> 01:39:05.621
<v Steve Novick>Single-stair layouts help a lot.

743
01:39:06.103 --> 01:39:11.203
<v Steve Novick>With only one stair, circulation space is reduced up to a third of—.

744
01:39:11.203 --> 01:39:11.314
<v Steve Novick>2/3.

745
01:39:11.521 --> 01:39:12.456
<v Steve Novick>What it would be here.

746
01:39:12.552 --> 01:39:18.945
<v Wes Ayers>And you see with this slide how much circulation space is required per floor versus, you know, having a single stair.

747
01:39:21.029 --> 01:39:32.298
<v Steve Novick>So with only one stair, the circulation space is reduced up to a third of the space required for a double-loaded corridor and allowing one more unit, more area room for larger 2 and 3-bedroom units.

748
01:39:33.270 --> 01:39:36.261
<v Wes Ayers>And again, as Ian pointed out, with larger windows on each floor.

749
01:39:36.666 --> 01:39:40.646
<v Wes Ayers>So not only are these units more economical, they feel more like home.

750
01:39:41.664 --> 01:39:50.061
<v Wes Ayers>So this is why single-story buildings are common on single lot types for up to 3 stories in residential multifamily zoned areas.

751
01:39:50.591 --> 01:39:51.555
<v Wes Ayers>So what's the problem?

752
01:39:52.180 --> 01:39:57.046
<v Wes Ayers>Well, in order to build more housing for more people in well-connected and desirable neighborhoods, we need land.

753
01:39:57.222 --> 01:40:06.454
<v Wes Ayers>And because there is very little vacant land left in these neighborhoods, we likely need to remove existing housing, which comes at both an economic and a displacement cost.

754
01:40:07.542 --> 01:40:16.702
<v Steve Novick>So on a typical single lot in Portland's inner neighborhoods, a single stair, 3-story building nets up to about 4 units per floor times 3 floors, right?

755
01:40:16.782 --> 01:40:23.317
<v Steve Novick>And then we lose a floor to the first floor for, you know, circulation, bike rooms, all that kind of stuff.

756
01:40:23.975 --> 01:40:26.078
<v Wes Ayers>And so we end up with 11 units.

757
01:40:27.631 --> 01:40:31.391
<v Steve Novick>And that's with sort of even sort of the best zoning we could get.

758
01:40:31.521 --> 01:40:33.224
<v Wes Ayers>And most of our lots don't even have that.

759
01:40:33.613 --> 01:40:35.201
<v Wes Ayers>So we end up with really small buildings.

760
01:40:35.250 --> 01:40:35.297
<v Wes Ayers>Yeah.

761
01:40:35.701 --> 01:40:44.654
<v Wes Ayers>So the economic viability of any development is dependent on the number of variables, including land costs, demolition costs, and all these costs that go into making buildings, right?

762
01:40:44.734 --> 01:40:49.661
<v Steve Novick>Well, right now, and all of that has to be paid for by either rent or a sales price, right?

763
01:40:50.127 --> 01:40:56.318
<v Wes Ayers>And right now, the rent and the sales don't cover the cost to develop on most of those sites with 3-story buildings.

764
01:40:57.252 --> 01:41:02.271
<v Wes Ayers>So each development obviously must clear the cost to develop before it can actually become more housing.

765
01:41:02.319 --> 01:41:02.368
<v Wes Ayers>Right.

766
01:41:02.662 --> 01:41:07.384
<v Wes Ayers>And as land becomes more valuable and fixed costs continue to increase, we're limited in our options.

767
01:41:07.819 --> 01:41:10.881
<v Wes Ayers>And the ready remedy to us right now is capacity.

768
01:41:12.189 --> 01:41:15.042
<v Steve Novick>So increasing development capacity reduces cost per unit.

769
01:41:15.384 --> 01:41:16.899
<v Wes Ayers>This may seem obvious, right?

770
01:41:16.948 --> 01:41:18.137
<v Wes Ayers>But I think it's worth saying out loud.

771
01:41:19.949 --> 01:41:25.792
<v Wes Ayers>Roughly 2/3 of a development at the scale that we're talking about right now scales per unit, right?

772
01:41:26.436 --> 01:41:31.641
<v Steve Novick>So every unit needs its own framing, siding, windows, drywall, wall cabinets, appliances, and wiring.

773
01:41:32.219 --> 01:41:34.814
<v Steve Novick>But the other third remains relatively fixed per development.

774
01:41:34.863 --> 01:41:41.113
<v Wes Ayers>That's land, design and engineering, excavation, the foundation, the bike room, the roof.

775
01:41:41.273 --> 01:41:44.703
<v Wes Ayers>All of those things are fixed regardless of how many floors you have.

776
01:41:45.391 --> 01:41:58.159
<v Wes Ayers>So when each additional floor adds 4 more homes, because that's a limit for single-stair buildings, right, to those fixed costs, right, the cost per unit drops substantially every floor we add.

777
01:41:58.539 --> 01:42:01.579
<v Steve Novick>So the result of each floor of building capacity is substantial.

778
01:42:02.020 --> 01:42:09.880
<v Wes Ayers>Take the same lot, the same foundation, same roof, and roughly the same set of drawings, and the only thing changing is the number of floors.

779
01:42:09.920 --> 01:42:19.960
<v Wes Ayers>3 Floors nets 11 homes, and each of one of those costs, on some of our more recent models, about $278,000 a unit to deliver.

780
01:42:19.960 --> 01:42:22.119
<v Wes Ayers>And then if we add a 4th floor, we get down to $236,000.

781
01:42:22.119 --> 01:42:22.140
<v Candace Avalos>Wow.

782
01:42:23.552 --> 01:42:28.786
<v Steve Novick>If we had a 5th floor, we can get down to $226,000, right?

783
01:42:28.850 --> 01:42:34.195
<v Wes Ayers>And that— so each additional floor only costs an additional $179,000 per floor, right?

784
01:42:34.323 --> 01:42:40.055
<v Wes Ayers>So you can see how quickly adding a floor really reduces the amount— the cost of each additional unit.

785
01:42:41.211 --> 01:42:44.501
<v Steve Novick>Small infill lot does something that large projects cannot.

786
01:42:44.903 --> 01:42:51.563
<v Wes Ayers>A 15-home building on one lot is a project that a local investor or developer can finance finance or manage.

787
01:42:51.963 --> 01:42:53.550
<v Wes Ayers>Granted, it's still a lot of money, right?

788
01:42:53.710 --> 01:42:57.460
<v Wes Ayers>But you don't need large institutional loans to kind of build this kind of housing.

789
01:42:58.132 --> 01:43:06.176
<v Wes Ayers>A 200-unit building on an assembled lot requires, you know, many millions of dollars and years of lot consolidation and pre-development.

790
01:43:06.770 --> 01:43:13.404
<v Wes Ayers>Only a handful of firms in Portland can do that, and Portland already has plenty of builders doing houses, ADUs, and small multifamily.

791
01:43:13.997 --> 01:43:22.682
<v Wes Ayers>Making a 4th or more floors possible on standard lot puts apartment construction within the reach of a lot more investors, right?

792
01:43:22.762 --> 01:43:27.899
<v Wes Ayers>So basically there's a few things that I just kind of want to kind of put out there, right?

793
01:43:27.979 --> 01:43:30.389
<v Steve Novick>One is that what's limiting us, right?

794
01:43:30.712 --> 01:43:35.305
<v Steve Novick>Well, right now, as was mentioned, we have some fire apparatus issues.

795
01:43:35.710 --> 01:43:44.810
<v Wes Ayers>Portland's code guide allows 4 stories on a single stair, but it requires the street-facing side with 26 feet clear for a ladder truck and no power lines overhead.

796
01:43:44.859 --> 01:43:45.005
<v Unidentified speaker>Right.

797
01:43:45.359 --> 01:43:48.949
<v Wes Ayers>That's not— basically, there's almost no lots that comply with that.

798
01:43:50.250 --> 01:43:56.046
<v Wes Ayers>And the second is zoning reform, which Portland Neighbors Welcome is ringing the bell on for the inner city east side for all.

799
01:43:56.947 --> 01:44:05.765
<v Steve Novick>So even if we were out, the building code would allow a 4th floor, the zoning in most of our multi-dwelling neighborhoods still limits us to 3 floors regardless.

800
01:44:07.217 --> 01:44:11.592
<v Wes Ayers>And then the third thing is that 4 stories is the current maximum for single stair in Oregon.

801
01:44:11.707 --> 01:44:11.934
<v Wes Ayers>Yeah.

802
01:44:12.042 --> 01:44:15.972
<v Wes Ayers>But Seattle has allowed 6 since 1977, as Michael pointed out.

803
01:44:17.193 --> 01:44:19.648
<v Wes Ayers>New York allows 6, British Columbia allows 6.

804
01:44:19.904 --> 01:44:24.478
<v Wes Ayers>And as land costs keep rising, we need the capacity to expand up, not out.

805
01:44:24.895 --> 01:44:26.917
<v Steve Novick>So none of this is experimental.

806
01:44:26.981 --> 01:44:39.064
<v Wes Ayers>New York has had about 4,400 single-stair buildings for over 3 stories, and their fire death rate is no different, and this is from Pew, than any other apartment building in the city.

807
01:44:39.399 --> 01:44:41.127
<v Wes Ayers>Seattle's been building them for 50 years.

808
01:44:41.822 --> 01:44:43.599
<v Wes Ayers>So, so that's it.

809
01:44:43.646 --> 01:44:44.470
<v Wes Ayers>That's what I've got.

810
01:44:44.778 --> 01:44:47.426
<v Wes Ayers>And, and I guess we're all happy to answer any questions.

811
01:44:50.125 --> 01:44:57.349
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you so much for the thorough presentation and really just excited to see the innovation that's been shown in the competition.

812
01:44:58.506 --> 01:45:04.548
<v Candace Avalos>And hopefully we're about to enter into some unified housing strategy discussions, and I'm really looking forward to this being part of it.

813
01:45:07.349 --> 01:45:10.590
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Thank you for being here.

814
01:45:10.654 --> 01:45:11.509
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Thanks for the presentation.

815
01:45:12.368 --> 01:45:15.759
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Always love hearing about a student design competition.

816
01:45:16.047 --> 01:45:16.755
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>It's awesome.

817
01:45:17.639 --> 01:45:29.012
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Can one of you share a bit more about if and how single stair design could help us plan for more accessible housing, especially for people who use wheelchairs?

818
01:45:29.060 --> 01:45:29.752
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Yeah, so I think that's a great question.

819
01:45:31.666 --> 01:45:32.287
<v Michael Anderson>I can take a crack.

820
01:45:36.210 --> 01:45:44.342
<v Michael Anderson>The key thresholds for accessible housing, I would say, are first, does it have at least 20 homes in the building?

821
01:45:44.697 --> 01:45:49.404
<v Michael Anderson>The 20th home triggers a Type A accessibility mandate for at least one of those homes.

822
01:45:50.034 --> 01:45:58.189
<v Michael Anderson>And so once you are able to put 20 homes in the building, One of them absolutely has to be pretty wheelchair ready.

823
01:45:58.432 --> 01:46:01.110
<v Michael Anderson>Type A is quite a high standard and effective at it.

824
01:46:03.989 --> 01:46:10.456
<v Michael Anderson>If you're only building to 3 stories at a single stair layout, that's only going to be 12 homes.

825
01:46:11.069 --> 01:46:12.679
<v Michael Anderson>4 stories gets you to 16.

826
01:46:13.435 --> 01:46:15.014
<v Michael Anderson>5 stories gets you to 20.

827
01:46:15.287 --> 01:46:24.159
<v Michael Anderson>So we're not— with this layout on the vast majority of lots, even if we were to allow small apartment buildings on the vast majority of lots in close-in neighborhoods.

828
01:46:24.596 --> 01:46:35.381
<v Michael Anderson>They likely wouldn't be built, they wouldn't trigger the Type A threshold, they wouldn't trigger inclusionary zoning until you can get to at least 20 homes in the building.

829
01:46:35.494 --> 01:46:36.091
<v Michael Anderson>So that's one part.

830
01:46:36.525 --> 01:46:38.489
<v Michael Anderson>Another threshold is, is there an elevator?

831
01:46:38.877 --> 01:46:48.310
<v Michael Anderson>If there's an elevator, not only do you have an elevator, you also have a Type B standard that applies to all the buildings, which is a lower standard of accessibility, but works for people who don't need a mobility device.

832
01:46:48.380 --> 01:46:48.431
<v Michael Anderson>Right.

833
01:46:49.390 --> 01:46:52.842
<v Michael Anderson>But still, you know, benefit from some accessibility features.

834
01:46:53.539 --> 01:47:11.234
<v Michael Anderson>So both getting to 5 stories and for the sake of making the elevator feasible, you know, the floors 2, 3, and 4 benefit from the existence of that 5th story that makes the elevator feasible and from getting to the higher unit count.

835
01:47:14.199 --> 01:47:38.891
<v Ian Crozier>And then jumping onto that, again, this single stair aligning with Inner Eastside for All, allowing apartment buildings in more locations off of arterials, if we have a building typology that is feasible to build in those areas, all of a sudden that opens up much vaster areas of the city that people who need a wheelchair are able to live in, right?

836
01:47:38.957 --> 01:47:44.608
<v Ian Crozier>Whereas currently, if you need to live in a building with an elevator, You have quite limited options.

837
01:47:44.657 --> 01:47:46.224
<v Ian Crozier>They're mostly on large arterials.

838
01:47:48.885 --> 01:48:00.313
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>And also, can someone expand on how single stair plans could be adapted to support residents over time, support people who are community members who are aging in place?

839
01:48:03.640 --> 01:48:03.769
<v Ian Crozier>Sure.

840
01:48:04.222 --> 01:48:12.988
<v Ian Crozier>I think the— honestly, the designs that came out of the competition do Do that quite beautifully.

841
01:48:14.072 --> 01:48:36.747
<v Ian Crozier>One of the— and we can't say what any particular building design or building owner is going to do with their building, but in general, the layout, the single stair layout creates options because it takes up so little space, because it allows the flexibility in unit layout.

842
01:48:36.814 --> 01:48:36.912
<v Ian Crozier>Yeah.

843
01:48:37.237 --> 01:48:40.738
<v Ian Crozier>And in light and air, it's there.

844
01:48:41.045 --> 01:49:00.820
<v Ian Crozier>That means that it is— there are many more possibilities to design a building that is going to work for a multigenerational family, that is going to have maybe a variety of different layouts in parts of the building that would be appropriate for a person at different life stages.

845
01:49:01.899 --> 01:49:03.286
<v Ian Crozier>Of course, the accessibility.

846
01:49:03.333 --> 01:49:03.479
<v Ian Crozier>Yes.

847
01:49:04.106 --> 01:49:06.085
<v Ian Crozier>Benefits that Michael just mentioned.

848
01:49:07.619 --> 01:49:23.439
<v Ian Crozier>And there's also, in terms of the social component, there is some nice studies out there that focus on the kinds of small public-private spaces that we occupy.

849
01:49:23.970 --> 01:49:29.787
<v Ian Crozier>I mentioned those long eerie hallways that are associated with double-loaded corridor buildings.

850
01:49:29.886 --> 01:49:30.047
<v Ian Crozier>Yeah.

851
01:49:30.981 --> 01:49:48.432
<v Ian Crozier>That is a— when you are sharing that space with potentially hundreds of other strangers, that creates a different social dynamic that, and I think generally speaking, does not promote socializing because it's just too many strange people.

852
01:49:48.930 --> 01:50:04.376
<v Ian Crozier>Whereas when you have 4 or 6 or 8 folks who are on just a single floor of the building or even up to, you know, a little more than a dozen units, that is a small enough group of people that it becomes much easier.

853
01:50:04.439 --> 01:50:14.738
<v Ian Crozier>And there is literature that has looked into this that makes it much easier to build social connections, which we also know is incredibly important as people go through different life stages.

854
01:50:16.787 --> 01:50:17.141
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Thank you.

855
01:50:17.753 --> 01:50:20.528
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>And I'm looking at slide 5.

856
01:50:21.301 --> 01:50:27.837
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>You can see it's It's like November 4th, and then a week later, hear from the Fire Bureau.

857
01:50:28.319 --> 01:50:35.635
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>I'm wondering if you all have been able to have conversations with leaders in our Fire Bureau or even the fire chief.

858
01:50:36.823 --> 01:50:39.117
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Do you know some of their perspectives?

859
01:50:39.533 --> 01:50:49.631
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>And then secondary, looking at cities like Vancouver, Washington, Seattle that are moving forward with this, do you know how that Has worked with their fire bureaus?

860
01:50:50.533 --> 01:50:56.355
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Have they been able to find some compromising, some working together, or can you share a little bit about that?

861
01:50:57.112 --> 01:51:14.250
<v Michael Anderson>I don't think any of us can speak for fire bureaus here or elsewhere in particular, but the— I spoke with a member of the fire bureau team a couple years ago when I was gathering I was able to participate in the conversation.

862
01:51:14.250 --> 01:51:14.250
<v Michael Anderson>I was able to participate in the conversation.

863
01:51:14.250 --> 01:51:26.609
<v Michael Anderson>Information for the conversation at the state level and was part of a subsequent conversation with some building code and fire code people here in the city soon after that.

864
01:51:26.909 --> 01:51:33.229
<v Michael Anderson>It seemed to me like at the time it was a very forthright conversation about trade-offs and ladder angles and so on.

865
01:51:33.229 --> 01:51:39.989
<v Michael Anderson>And I was pretty optimistic that everybody was headed to a useful outcome.

866
01:51:43.300 --> 01:51:52.615
<v Michael Anderson>I haven't spoken with any folks since that November decision, and I know we've been in conversation with a couple council offices about it, but I don't know what may have come of that.

867
01:51:56.613 --> 01:51:57.095
<v Michael Anderson>I would love to.

868
01:51:58.042 --> 01:52:02.125
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>I just got sent an official statement.

869
01:52:02.863 --> 01:52:06.203
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Okay, so it sounds like there are some pretty strong feelings.

870
01:52:06.269 --> 01:52:09.018
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Do you— can you share at all about studies around fire safety?

871
01:52:10.266 --> 01:52:13.609
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Around single stair design and what those studies show?

872
01:52:15.479 --> 01:52:16.783
<v Michael Anderson>I can, but do you want to?

873
01:52:17.347 --> 01:52:17.573
<v Michael Anderson>Please.

874
01:52:17.751 --> 01:52:49.715
<v Michael Anderson>Okay, so there was a close analysis that Wes mentioned of the safety record in New York City that concluded that it had the exact, over the course of 10 years, The last 25 years or so, the number of homes in those buildings compared to every other existing building in New York City had the exact same rate of fire deaths for the single stair and the other housing types.

875
01:52:49.762 --> 01:53:04.631
<v Michael Anderson>There is a different analysis of national data comparing multifamily buildings, old multifamily buildings, old single-family buildings, new multifamily buildings, And new single-family buildings.

876
01:53:05.086 --> 01:53:09.614
<v Michael Anderson>Of all of those, by far the safest housing type is the new multifamily building.

877
01:53:11.251 --> 01:53:16.003
<v Michael Anderson>And old multifamily buildings and old single-family buildings, significantly less safe.

878
01:53:16.376 --> 01:53:26.681
<v Michael Anderson>So in the aggregate of what we should be doing, moving to buildings with sprinklers is a huge, huge safety improvement.

879
01:53:26.795 --> 01:53:29.167
<v Michael Anderson>Now, that can be a big building with sprinklers or a small building with sprinklers.

880
01:53:29.216 --> 01:53:29.265
<v Michael Anderson>Yeah.

881
01:53:29.543 --> 01:53:34.725
<v Michael Anderson>Small buildings with sprinklers, I think it's likely reflected in that New York fire safety data.

882
01:53:35.113 --> 01:53:39.011
<v Michael Anderson>The smaller a building is, the fewer people are affected by any single fire event, right?

883
01:53:39.158 --> 01:53:54.219
<v Michael Anderson>And so that's also just the mere small size of a building is a huge safety benefit to the calculation that I think has sometimes been lost in the conversation about number of staircases.

884
01:53:54.268 --> 01:53:57.570
<v Michael Anderson>We're talking about increasing the number of staircases per home.

885
01:53:57.636 --> 01:53:57.686
<v Michael Anderson>Right.

886
01:53:58.367 --> 01:53:59.216
<v Michael Anderson>In these buildings, right?

887
01:53:59.265 --> 01:54:10.591
<v Michael Anderson>Because one small building with a staircase and 4 units per floor is way, way, way more stair capacity than one giant building with 2 staircases, if that makes sense.

888
01:54:10.993 --> 01:54:12.935
<v Michael Anderson>So that is one way to think about it.

889
01:54:13.849 --> 01:54:22.625
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>And on that slide 5 where it says 2027, it sounds like it's saying it's very possible that nationally this might change.

890
01:54:23.025 --> 01:54:45.146
<v Michael Anderson>Is that what yeah, and so there's been a conversation, life, a conversation in the National Building Code world about this, and a very similar set of conditions to Appendix Q is headed for the International Building Code, International Building Code in 2027, and would be expected generally to be integrated into the 2028 OSSC in Oregon.

891
01:54:46.109 --> 01:54:52.056
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Is there a certain date that that's adopted, or just sometime in 2027, and then It's 2028 when it goes into effect.

892
01:54:52.104 --> 01:54:57.395
<v Michael Anderson>Yeah, the IBC is on its own schedule and then typically Oregon follows a year later and integrates things.

893
01:54:57.636 --> 01:55:03.463
<v Michael Anderson>But Oregon has the option to deviate from the national model as it sees fit.

894
01:55:04.338 --> 01:55:06.023
<v Tiffany Koyama Lane>Thanks for answering all my questions.

895
01:55:07.949 --> 01:55:08.708
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you, Councilor.

896
01:55:08.854 --> 01:55:15.154
<v Candace Avalos>I am next in the queue and I, well, first of all, thank you for being here.

897
01:55:16.416 --> 01:55:24.033
<v Candace Avalos>You know, obviously housing affordability is one of our most pressing challenges, and we need to get serious about increasing housing production.

898
01:55:24.081 --> 01:55:37.931
<v Candace Avalos>And so I think that the single-story buildings have become an important topic in housing policy because they raise the question of, are there opportunities to safely build more housing on more sites by modernizing regulations that were developed decades ago?

899
01:55:37.980 --> 01:55:40.583
<v Candace Avalos>So I'm grateful that we're having this discussion.

900
01:55:40.680 --> 01:55:41.885
<v Candace Avalos>We're engaging students.

901
01:55:42.367 --> 01:55:46.073
<v Candace Avalos>And to envision what the future looks like.

902
01:55:46.618 --> 01:55:51.655
<v Candace Avalos>I wanted to pick up on the dialogue around accessible housing.

903
01:55:52.168 --> 01:56:04.859
<v Candace Avalos>You know, I think that as more people— if you look broadly at housing and kind of what's going on with where— what kinds of housing people need, obviously we know we need more family-sized housing.

904
01:56:04.922 --> 01:56:05.949
<v Candace Avalos>That's been an ongoing need.

905
01:56:06.367 --> 01:56:27.092
<v Candace Avalos>But this conversation around I just— I guess I'm just concerned that I don't hear a broader conversation about more universal design in our housing, because at the end of the day, we are all only temporarily able-bodied, right?

906
01:56:27.737 --> 01:56:33.195
<v Candace Avalos>And mobility challenges only increase with age, and that's on top of people who, you know, have disabilities.

907
01:56:33.277 --> 01:56:33.390
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you.

908
01:56:33.662 --> 01:56:34.947
<v Candace Avalos>These different challenges.

909
01:56:35.011 --> 01:56:48.761
<v Candace Avalos>And so I just, I, I guess I'm just thinking out loud that it concerns me that I don't know that as a whole I'm seeing a lot of discussion on how we, like, making something accessible for someone in a wheelchair makes it accessible for everybody.

910
01:56:48.841 --> 01:56:50.496
<v Candace Avalos>That's the whole point of universal design.

911
01:56:50.864 --> 01:56:53.515
<v Candace Avalos>It's not about making things just for people with wheelchairs.

912
01:56:53.579 --> 01:57:19.159
<v Candace Avalos>It's about making it so that if it's, you know, you're, you know, maybe you have a mobility challenge or you develop one, or if we're looking at trying to increase our housing stock, knowing that a lot of elderly seniors are going to have to size down, and knowing that a lot of our homeless population is increasingly people over age 65, and our homeless population is overrepresented in folks with disabilities.

913
01:57:19.271 --> 01:57:41.471
<v Candace Avalos>And so just again, you know, as I was hearing you explain kind of the different trigger levels of when you should have an accessible home in a building, that just feels very, um, paltry and doesn't feel like we're— I would just want to elevate that as an important part of how we talk about, um, universal design and housing.

914
01:57:41.583 --> 01:57:57.926
<v Candace Avalos>So just wanted to state that because I think that's a key, um, to how we're going to help a lot of the folks that are currently unhoused get into housing, and they're going to need So this was a lot of wonky land conversation.

915
01:57:57.974 --> 01:58:06.067
<v Candace Avalos>So for those that are listening in, and LOL at the people who I said, the 5 of you listening in, I got those 5 people message me and said, I was one of them.

916
01:58:06.805 --> 01:58:14.078
<v Candace Avalos>So for all of those folks that are listening, can you tell me what is the core problem that the single stair reform is trying to solve?

917
01:58:14.127 --> 01:58:17.697
<v Candace Avalos>So the single stair reform is trying to solve can you summarize that for us?

918
01:58:23.229 --> 01:58:40.667
<v Ian Crozier>The way we build multifamily housing is inefficient, backwards, expensive, inflexible, and does not produce the results that we deserve.

919
01:58:44.131 --> 01:58:45.556
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, you want to take a crack at it?

920
01:58:45.637 --> 01:58:46.118
<v Candace Avalos>Anyone else?

921
01:58:47.479 --> 01:58:48.409
<v Wes Ayers>Yeah, I'll take it.

922
01:58:48.457 --> 01:58:49.226
<v Wes Ayers>I'll take a crack.

923
01:58:49.386 --> 01:58:51.822
<v Wes Ayers>I've sort of enjoyed kind of putting this together.

924
01:58:53.265 --> 01:58:54.481
<v Wes Ayers>So what's become—.

925
01:58:54.770 --> 01:59:03.135
<v Wes Ayers>I mean, what we already kind of know being in the industry is that, you know, every unit that we add, you know, per floor plate obviously decreases the cost per unit.

926
01:59:04.368 --> 01:59:09.078
<v Wes Ayers>But what's so amazing about single stair is that we can actually start to develop these small lots.

927
01:59:10.130 --> 01:59:16.469
<v Wes Ayers>And we can get a lot more housing like in the neighborhoods that we already have all this infrastructure for.

928
01:59:16.886 --> 01:59:31.685
<v Wes Ayers>And Sameer came to our— sorry, Councilor Kanal came to a meeting at the library in Hollywood just, I think it was last week, and really kind of put forth like how critical our infrastructure is right now that we need more people.

929
01:59:31.751 --> 01:59:34.289
<v Wes Ayers>We need more people, you know, paying into the system.

930
01:59:34.564 --> 01:59:36.484
<v Wes Ayers>You know, it's older and then, and if we just—.

931
01:59:36.484 --> 01:59:36.534
<v Wes Ayers>Yeah.

932
01:59:36.671 --> 01:59:43.722
<v Wes Ayers>Continue this sort of suburban kind of Inner East Side vibe, like we may not be able to support it.

933
01:59:43.884 --> 01:59:48.605
<v Wes Ayers>And building apartments, you know, these big ones requires a lot of resources.

934
01:59:49.425 --> 01:59:52.509
<v Wes Ayers>And the accessibility, right?

935
01:59:52.557 --> 02:00:03.389
<v Wes Ayers>The ability to build these small buildings that are more neighborhood scaled and that still provide, you know, like house-like living conditions homes, right?

936
02:00:03.550 --> 02:00:07.345
<v Wes Ayers>You can actually get 2 and 3-bedroom units rather than these shotgun, you know.

937
02:00:07.426 --> 02:00:10.322
<v Steve Novick>So I think just the quality of what we're going to build is going to be better.

938
02:00:10.481 --> 02:00:13.836
<v Steve Novick>The accessibility to the people who can actually finance it is easier.

939
02:00:15.225 --> 02:00:27.497
<v Wes Ayers>And just to comment a little bit on your accessibility comment there, elevator reform, you know, at the state level would take us a really long way to providing more elevators because the market wants elevators, right?

940
02:00:28.222 --> 02:00:28.609
<v Wes Ayers>We just—.

941
02:00:28.868 --> 02:00:29.046
<v Ian Crozier>There's—.

942
02:00:29.046 --> 02:00:29.109
<v Michael Anderson>Yeah.

943
02:00:29.356 --> 02:00:32.444
<v Steve Novick>There's just a big elevator wants to keep them expensive, right?

944
02:00:32.524 --> 02:00:34.885
<v Wes Ayers>And there's other reasons why, and I won't get into that.

945
02:00:34.949 --> 02:00:41.103
<v Wes Ayers>But I think if we had more accessible elevators, we could actually do a lot more for the people who need that.

946
02:00:43.359 --> 02:00:43.698
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you.

947
02:00:45.010 --> 02:00:45.948
<v Candace Avalos>Did you want to—.

948
02:00:47.015 --> 02:00:54.780
<v Michael Anderson>I think a key to our strategy going forward should be trying to create homes that older Oregonians want to downsize into.

949
02:00:55.873 --> 02:01:03.180
<v Michael Anderson>There are a lot of homes in Portland that are, you know, 1 or 2 people in a 3 to 4 bedroom home.

950
02:01:03.404 --> 02:01:04.801
<v Michael Anderson>In many cases, that's fantastic.

951
02:01:04.945 --> 02:01:08.238
<v Michael Anderson>I don't want anybody to have to move out of that, but lots of people want to move out of that.

952
02:01:08.479 --> 02:01:10.341
<v Michael Anderson>They just need a place to want to move into.

953
02:01:11.032 --> 02:01:15.832
<v Michael Anderson>And this opportunity arises even in a context where we don't have a growing population.

954
02:01:16.265 --> 02:01:20.569
<v Michael Anderson>We have a growing senior population, and we have a huge population of people who would love to move into those larger homes.

955
02:01:21.019 --> 02:01:24.953
<v Michael Anderson>If they were available because somebody decided they wanted to move into a smaller place.

956
02:01:25.498 --> 02:01:28.854
<v Michael Anderson>This makes those smaller places possible on every lot in every neighborhood.

957
02:01:29.753 --> 02:01:30.186
<v Candace Avalos>That's helpful.

958
02:01:31.375 --> 02:01:40.335
<v Candace Avalos>So as you said, Oregon has already adopted portions of this building code, but many— you suggest that very few projects have moved forward.

959
02:01:40.447 --> 02:01:46.099
<v Candace Avalos>So can you just again summarize, like, what do you see is preventing some of these getting built?

960
02:01:46.212 --> 02:01:51.634
<v Candace Avalos>And how much of these challenges are building code itself versus the zoning and permitting and fire bureau?

961
02:01:51.698 --> 02:01:58.203
<v Candace Avalos>Just give us— paint us a picture of like, what are the main barriers that you're seeing to getting this, getting more of these kinds of homes built?

962
02:02:02.114 --> 02:02:06.591
<v Michael Anderson>I mean, not very many homes are being built in Portland right now at the moment because population has been flat.

963
02:02:07.090 --> 02:02:20.011
<v Michael Anderson>And I think we are all— a ton of your work is preparing for the possibility the population starts to grow again and making the most of that when it happens, making sure that catastrophe doesn't follow, right?

964
02:02:22.935 --> 02:02:42.469
<v Michael Anderson>The things that are standing in the way of this being part of that future, of single-story buildings being part of that graceful growth in the future, are coming up with some reasonable fire-safe rules that could allow 4, 5, Potentially 6 stories to exist.

965
02:02:43.033 --> 02:02:44.664
<v Michael Anderson>Some of that needs to happen at the state level.

966
02:02:44.744 --> 02:02:48.618
<v Michael Anderson>Some of that code work needs to happen at the state level too, and some of it needs to happen at the local level.

967
02:02:48.684 --> 02:02:50.311
<v Michael Anderson>And I'm not a fire safety expert.

968
02:02:50.554 --> 02:02:59.362
<v Michael Anderson>I'm just trying to have a conversation about the benefit side of the ledger so that people who know more about the trade-offs can think about those.

969
02:03:01.261 --> 02:03:10.595
<v Ian Crozier>I'll weigh in just to say that there are a few single-stair buildings being built in Portland, and there are 3 stories or less.

970
02:03:11.255 --> 02:03:16.222
<v Ian Crozier>And now we went and toured one with the students down on Division.

971
02:03:16.479 --> 02:03:20.770
<v Ian Crozier>Actually, there's a pair of buildings called E and Hutch designed by a firm called Quad Architects.

972
02:03:21.541 --> 02:03:22.311
<v Ian Crozier>They're very nice.

973
02:03:22.907 --> 02:03:24.626
<v Ian Crozier>They're this lovely compact.

974
02:03:24.706 --> 02:03:33.976
<v Ian Crozier>It makes great use of the lot, a small lot that would be, like we've said, it would be difficult to develop with a different kind of building.

975
02:03:34.411 --> 02:03:36.692
<v Ian Crozier>But it's because it's only 3 stories.

976
02:03:36.740 --> 02:03:36.820
<v Unidentified speaker>Yeah.

977
02:03:39.854 --> 02:03:45.228
<v Ian Crozier>And partly because of some zoning, some other zoning things that we'd like to change, it had to be 3 stories.

978
02:03:48.649 --> 02:03:48.779
<v Ian Crozier>It—.

979
02:03:48.779 --> 02:03:53.887
<v Ian Crozier>There's only so many of— well, anyhow, I should say because it's only 3 stories, the cost per unit is quite high.

980
02:03:54.259 --> 02:03:56.417
<v Ian Crozier>You aren't able to divide that cost over more units.

981
02:03:56.483 --> 02:04:02.788
<v Ian Crozier>So you do in fact see some of these, you see some 6-plexes and 12-plexes in different parts of the city.

982
02:04:03.344 --> 02:04:08.038
<v Ian Crozier>But we would certainly see more if you could have more units per building.

983
02:04:10.024 --> 02:04:10.217
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you.

984
02:04:10.282 --> 02:04:16.104
<v Candace Avalos>My last question is, you all are arguing that single-stair buildings can unlock housing on smaller infill lots.

985
02:04:16.167 --> 02:04:17.635
<v Candace Avalos>That seems to be a big part of this.

986
02:04:18.454 --> 02:04:26.845
<v Candace Avalos>So do you have a sense of how many sites across Portland could become more developable if those remaining barriers were addressed?

987
02:04:26.893 --> 02:04:34.060
<v Candace Avalos>Like, I'm just trying to get a sense for what can we I did some math.

988
02:04:34.109 --> 02:04:34.846
<v Michael Anderson>I'm happy to send it to you.

989
02:04:34.926 --> 02:04:36.323
<v Michael Anderson>It's in the order of tens of thousands.

990
02:04:36.662 --> 02:04:39.454
<v Candace Avalos>Yeah, tens of thousands.

991
02:04:39.728 --> 02:04:41.494
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, well, that feels urgent to me.

992
02:04:42.121 --> 02:04:48.511
<v Candace Avalos>Um, thank you again for the conversation, and, um, also just want to thank the student design competition.

993
02:04:48.623 --> 02:04:58.283
<v Candace Avalos>It's really encouraging to see emerging designers thinking creatively about how Portland can grow while maintaining our So thank you again for leading on that.

994
02:04:59.220 --> 02:05:02.677
<v Candace Avalos>And with that, I'll pass it to our next person in queue, which is Vice Chair Green.

995
02:05:04.289 --> 02:05:06.672
<v Mitch Green>Thank you so much, Chair Avalos, and thanks for scheduling this.

996
02:05:08.449 --> 02:05:29.219
<v Mitch Green>You know, I, I was really honored to receive the invitation to help be a judge on this panel, and I was really grateful that you wanted to kind of help bring this, because I think that a lot of what we talk about up here It's sometimes unpleasant where we're initiating a foreclosure action or we're doing something that's extremely wonky and frankly boring.

997
02:05:29.976 --> 02:05:31.268
<v Mitch Green>Important, but frankly boring.

998
02:05:31.315 --> 02:05:44.997
<v Mitch Green>And so envisioning what our city could look like and it'd be a beautiful transformation of our housing stock, I think is really important for connecting kind of that future vision state with Portlanders.

999
02:05:45.045 --> 02:05:48.152
<v Mitch Green>So then they can see it and they can see it in a way that's They can say, yeah, I'm going to stay here.

1000
02:05:48.216 --> 02:05:52.176
<v Mitch Green>I'm looking forward to the opportunity to move in one of these buildings later on down the road.

1001
02:05:53.108 --> 02:06:03.631
<v Mitch Green>And I want to talk through just briefly off the top of my head some of the designs I looked at that frankly kind of brought me to tears as I was evaluating them.

1002
02:06:03.694 --> 02:06:16.591
<v Mitch Green>There was one in particular, Councilor Koyama Lane, because I know this is an issue you care a lot about, is like the ability to age in place, the ability to kind of like, are we building houses and spaces and neighborhoods for the entire spectrum of generations?

1003
02:06:17.216 --> 02:06:23.409
<v Mitch Green>And there was one design that a student put forward that was like really all about modularity.

1004
02:06:24.100 --> 02:06:31.462
<v Mitch Green>And it was like building out a space where you can move walls, like, and create sub little rooms inside larger rooms.

1005
02:06:31.576 --> 02:06:37.335
<v Mitch Green>So like, for instance, you've got a new child and you want a little special nursery for that kid.

1006
02:06:37.511 --> 02:06:42.264
<v Mitch Green>And then once they've grown, then you move a wall and it's all on this track system and now you've got a larger bedroom.

1007
02:06:42.810 --> 02:06:55.286
<v Mitch Green>And then there was this other envision where like, you know, with these plans you might envision a sort of like, it's almost like an accessory dwelling unit for like a mother-in-law suite as someone is retiring and wants to be in the house.

1008
02:06:55.399 --> 02:07:01.676
<v Mitch Green>So they really leaned into this idea of multi-generation housing inside of a multifamily lot.

1009
02:07:01.981 --> 02:07:03.073
<v Mitch Green>And that got me a little Yeah.

1010
02:07:03.217 --> 02:07:06.672
<v Mitch Green>It's a little closer to what I saw in Europe when I did my trip to Vienna.

1011
02:07:06.737 --> 02:07:12.632
<v Mitch Green>There was a lot of housing stock just like that that was built as workforce housing or sort of all ages, stages, and wages housing.

1012
02:07:12.680 --> 02:07:19.060
<v Mitch Green>And so just kind of seeing that that's what the students were dreaming up, given the design parameters, was really inspiring.

1013
02:07:19.108 --> 02:07:21.020
<v Mitch Green>And it kind of keeps you connected to the work.

1014
02:07:21.277 --> 02:07:23.076
<v Mitch Green>And it makes it really urgent to ask the boring questions.

1015
02:07:23.123 --> 02:07:26.804
<v Mitch Green>Like, so I'll get there, and that's where I'm going with this.

1016
02:07:26.899 --> 02:07:29.841
<v Mitch Green>But so accessibility is kind of at the Yeah.

1017
02:07:29.988 --> 02:07:36.176
<v Mitch Green>'Cause there's a lot of different ways, like you might have imagined, even going beyond Class A accessibility, which is what I saw in some of these designs.

1018
02:07:38.835 --> 02:07:46.279
<v Mitch Green>But Wes, you had said something about single stair could provide maybe more solution space.

1019
02:07:46.472 --> 02:07:57.440
<v Mitch Green>So more developers who maybe can't play at the level of the multi-hundred million dollar project player, but can do something at a much smaller scale.

1020
02:07:57.554 --> 02:08:03.109
<v Mitch Green>Like, that opens up a sort of broader portfolio of capabilities and talent.

1021
02:08:03.494 --> 02:08:20.242
<v Mitch Green>When I heard that, I was thinking that there are sort of cost hurdle barriers to the firms who can be involved, which also implies that the kind of money that comes into the capital stack depends upon your access to international capital markets that are quite frozen, frankly, right now.

1022
02:08:20.931 --> 02:08:37.184
<v Mitch Green>And so do you see this as an opportunity for us to say, if we can make some policy changes at the local level and in partnership with the state, then we are basically sort of lowering that hurdle rate so it's less expensive to invest and kind of get the job done?

1023
02:08:37.681 --> 02:08:47.822
<v Wes Ayers>Yeah, I have 3 projects right now that were put on hold recently in the past 8 months, all which are really close to Financial feasibility, right?

1024
02:08:47.869 --> 02:08:56.841
<v Wes Ayers>The STC waivers help a lot, but we reworked the numbers and we're still just a couple units shy of something that they're interested in actually putting their money towards.

1025
02:08:57.194 --> 02:09:01.175
<v Wes Ayers>And these are, you know, they're, you know, $2 to $3 million, $4 million buildings.

1026
02:09:01.304 --> 02:09:03.261
<v Wes Ayers>That's a lot of money to a lot of people, right?

1027
02:09:03.438 --> 02:09:20.893
<v Wes Ayers>But, you know, to certain investors, that's something that they're, you know, somebody, you know, these are employed people, lawyers, doctors, You know, people in tech who, you know, have gotten together with friends of theirs and they want to invest in real estate right here in Portland because they believe in Portland, right?

1028
02:09:20.957 --> 02:09:24.460
<v Wes Ayers>So this isn't, you know, this isn't large institutional money.

1029
02:09:24.796 --> 02:09:28.750
<v Wes Ayers>And we're really close to being able to pull the trigger on some of these buildings, but right now we can't.

1030
02:09:28.845 --> 02:09:35.529
<v Wes Ayers>If we were able to add another floor or add some FAR to these buildings, you know, I'd like to say that we could build more.

1031
02:09:36.702 --> 02:10:09.710
<v Mitch Green>Now that probably also implies that, If we're imagining other types of homeownership models, like limited equity co-ops, for instance, your ability to pool capital from like maybe a group of 19, 20 prospector buyers into a building from the start where you sort of get together and choose an architecture from the start, like then your hurdle rate's also lower for that group of pooled kind of, for lack of a better term, Yeah, absolutely.

1032
02:10:09.710 --> 02:10:22.810
<v Wes Ayers>I think there's some sort of some hurdles at the state level, you know, and that maybe Michael could speak to better than I can about some liability around sort of the 10-year, you know, condo stuff, right?

1033
02:10:22.810 --> 02:10:27.029
<v Wes Ayers>That kind of restricts some of these sort of flat-type condo housings currently.

1034
02:10:27.359 --> 02:10:30.189
<v Wes Ayers>But if it weren't for some of those barriers, I think we'd see a lot more of this in Portland.

1035
02:10:30.189 --> 02:10:30.329
<v Kevin Foster>Yeah, I think that's a more great point.

1036
02:10:30.926 --> 02:10:33.002
<v Wes Ayers>Flat-type condos come around again.

1037
02:10:33.212 --> 02:10:44.784
<v Wes Ayers>And this is a kind of product where, you know, if you could have a 3-bedroom flat, you know, in a close-in neighborhood for a reasonable price, like, that would be pretty awesome.

1038
02:10:46.488 --> 02:10:46.994
<v Ian Crozier>That's great.

1039
02:10:47.141 --> 02:11:01.000
<v Mitch Green>I think that it's gonna be a while before we've— the interest rate environment's still not great, and I think it's gonna be a while before there's a big pile of magic money that we can just throw subsidy cash at.

1040
02:11:01.113 --> 02:11:18.164
<v Mitch Green>And so being able to take whatever measures that we can to provide more solution space, I think there was a metric there that said something like going from sub-90% efficiency to 92% efficiency, that like in dollars and cents, like give me a sense of scale.

1041
02:11:18.229 --> 02:11:20.268
<v Mitch Green>Like what does that do to the price of a unit?

1042
02:11:20.541 --> 02:11:21.199
<v Wes Ayers>Like how does that pencil out?

1043
02:11:21.264 --> 02:11:24.984
<v Wes Ayers>So in the most the most recent study I did over the past few days in preparation for this, right?

1044
02:11:25.050 --> 02:11:30.086
<v Wes Ayers>Looking at a 50 by 100 lot and assuming, you know, some make-believe zoning, right?

1045
02:11:31.047 --> 02:11:33.550
<v Wes Ayers>So RM-3, RM-4 or something, a hybrid of that.

1046
02:11:34.015 --> 02:11:43.542
<v Wes Ayers>I was basically calculating on the low end an 11% increase per floor plate and then all the way up to 16% depending on different finishes.

1047
02:11:43.654 --> 02:11:49.653
<v Wes Ayers>So, you know, really at 11%, that's still 1 in 10 free units essentially, right?

1048
02:11:49.748 --> 02:11:51.595
<v Wes Ayers>Or the ability to reduce the price by that much.

1049
02:11:51.996 --> 02:11:54.484
<v Wes Ayers>At 16%, that's really meaningful.

1050
02:11:54.951 --> 02:11:56.331
<v Wes Ayers>So I don't know.

1051
02:11:56.475 --> 02:12:01.565
<v Wes Ayers>I mean, I got— the more I dove into this over the past week or so in preparation for this, the more excited I got.

1052
02:12:01.630 --> 02:12:02.673
<v Wes Ayers>I think it's a really good idea.

1053
02:12:03.797 --> 02:12:15.648
<v Mitch Green>And finally, I think just to kind of go back to this question, I think the comment was made, I can't remember who made the comment, but Michael, I think you made the comment that our slow housing production is largely a function of our slow population growth.

1054
02:12:17.123 --> 02:12:18.796
<v Mitch Green>And that's like a supply and demand argument.

1055
02:12:20.747 --> 02:12:40.009
<v Mitch Green>And I think that's right, but I think if we wait for the population to come back to then adopt this, then we're gonna be in scarcity conditions where you're gonna drive that displacement risk much higher than if we were to sort of move forward now to create extra capacity in terms of like the buildable lots, so to speak.

1056
02:12:41.948 --> 02:12:42.960
<v Mitch Green>Is that the right way to think about it?

1057
02:12:43.457 --> 02:12:50.730
<v Michael Anderson>Yeah, the lower Wes's costs get, the less we have to wait for prices to rise before his investors can invest, right?

1058
02:12:50.844 --> 02:12:55.740
<v Michael Anderson>So like, we can wait for the population to rise and for the prices to rise and for more homes to be built.

1059
02:12:55.820 --> 02:12:58.662
<v Michael Anderson>That's how we've always done it in the past, but that's not the best way to do it.

1060
02:12:58.711 --> 02:13:02.805
<v Michael Anderson>The best way to do it is to cut the costs so the prices don't have to rise before the homes can be built.

1061
02:13:03.207 --> 02:13:07.060
<v Mitch Green>That's what I hope— hoping— I was hoping you would say that in your own words, so thank you.

1062
02:13:07.546 --> 02:13:11.942
<v Mitch Green>Yeah, I think this is great work, and, um, yeah, obviously I'm a fan.

1063
02:13:12.268 --> 02:13:12.658
<v Mitch Green>Thanks so much.

1064
02:13:15.010 --> 02:13:15.576
<v Candace Avalos>Councilor Pirtle-Guiney.

1065
02:13:15.914 --> 02:13:17.759
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you, Chair Avalos.

1066
02:13:17.872 --> 02:13:19.167
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you all for being here.

1067
02:13:19.958 --> 02:13:47.460
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Um, you know, there's some really inspirational pieces to some of these designs that you brought forward, and I wish that we were in a space— and I know it will require a lot of different things to move us in that I mean, imagine having some of the units that are being built in Portland today have those modular walls or those accessibility features.

1068
02:13:48.121 --> 02:13:51.170
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And there really isn't anything right now that prevents that, right?

1069
02:13:52.154 --> 02:14:07.836
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Those came forward in a design competition focused on single stairway because design competition are where students are able to highlight really cool cutting-edge pieces, but this change doesn't lead to those things, does it?

1070
02:14:13.587 --> 02:14:14.296
<v Ian Crozier>Not necessarily.

1071
02:14:14.957 --> 02:14:31.345
<v Ian Crozier>Um, you're, you're right on in pointing out that there is a— there is— the design competition has a role, and the role is not to show us exactly what will be built under the most realistic scenarios.

1072
02:14:31.442 --> 02:14:43.492
<v Ian Crozier>But the role is to, because it's so valuable to dream big, like you said, and it's valuable for the students, of course, as well to explore and to try out new things.

1073
02:14:44.661 --> 02:15:05.036
<v Ian Crozier>I think all 3 of us would say that all the same, we, by opening doors, speaking of accessibility, Accessibility in elevators and everything, you make these outcomes more likely and more likely in certain situations.

1074
02:15:05.131 --> 02:15:14.762
<v Ian Crozier>There's a vast range of different buildings being built in the city, and no one can see them all or know what they are like.

1075
02:15:14.922 --> 02:15:31.658
<v Ian Crozier>But by increasing the options about what people are allowed to build and by increasing the flexibility and reducing the costs, those are exactly what you would want to do to create a greater wealth of options and creativity.

1076
02:15:32.478 --> 02:15:32.911
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Absolutely.

1077
02:15:32.975 --> 02:15:38.177
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And I think finding ways to decrease costs is certainly important.

1078
02:15:39.381 --> 02:15:50.788
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>The presentation today, you didn't talk about a specific number of stories you would want to see single stairway allowed in.

1079
02:15:50.886 --> 02:15:59.921
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I don't know if that means you're hoping for any number of floors or if there's another level that you think would be an appropriate cap.

1080
02:16:00.323 --> 02:16:01.324
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>You don't need to answer that.

1081
02:16:01.389 --> 02:16:02.033
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>That's okay.

1082
02:16:03.002 --> 02:16:11.141
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>But I say that to say it seemed to me that a lot of what you were talking about focused on a 5 or a 6-story level.

1083
02:16:11.222 --> 02:16:11.351
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah.

1084
02:16:12.176 --> 02:16:16.238
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Under state building code, because we are beholden to state building code, right?

1085
02:16:16.302 --> 02:16:18.502
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We have that single code in our state.

1086
02:16:20.079 --> 02:16:24.439
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>What level are single stairways allowed until?

1087
02:16:24.488 --> 02:16:25.310
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Is it the 4?

1088
02:16:26.069 --> 02:16:29.786
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I think that's what you said at the beginning, or is it allowed until 5 or 6?

1089
02:16:31.338 --> 02:16:37.875
<v Michael Anderson>So the current building code in the state, the base building code, allows 3 stories.

1090
02:16:38.915 --> 02:16:42.601
<v Michael Anderson>The Appendix Q that was adopted in response to the recent legislation—.

1091
02:16:42.940 --> 02:16:43.102
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yes.

1092
02:16:43.424 --> 02:16:49.736
<v Michael Anderson>Allows a 4th story under certain conditions, and then it also requires sign-off by the local fire service.

1093
02:16:50.203 --> 02:16:56.354
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So even if we were to make the changes at the city level, that would allow up to 4 stories.

1094
02:16:56.418 --> 02:16:58.003
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>It would be 1 additional story.

1095
02:16:58.521 --> 02:17:03.988
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>State code has a limitation, a hard cap at 4 stories.

1096
02:17:04.138 --> 02:17:05.398
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Is that correct?

1097
02:17:06.141 --> 02:17:06.611
<v Michael Anderson>It does today.

1098
02:17:07.031 --> 02:17:07.273
<v Michael Anderson>Okay.

1099
02:17:07.337 --> 02:17:10.894
<v Michael Anderson>Many of the states that I mentioned have gone further, and the state may go further in the future.

1100
02:17:12.425 --> 02:17:16.334
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Um, and you had some numbers about cost savings.

1101
02:17:17.271 --> 02:17:21.895
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I think they were $10,000 per unit.

1102
02:17:22.235 --> 02:17:23.078
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Is that accurate?

1103
02:17:23.436 --> 02:17:25.027
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Do I remember that correctly in the presentation?

1104
02:17:27.398 --> 02:17:33.359
<v Wes Ayers>Um, I could tell you, and, and this is based So it was based on just one model, right?

1105
02:17:33.601 --> 02:17:41.456
<v Wes Ayers>And that model assumes 2,500 square foot floor plates and a certain fit and finish, right?

1106
02:17:41.504 --> 02:17:43.471
<v Wes Ayers>I mean, I have to create some sort of baseline, right?

1107
02:17:43.520 --> 02:17:51.325
<v Wes Ayers>So it was based on a building that we built on North Killingsworth at $278,000 per unit.

1108
02:17:52.471 --> 02:18:00.968
<v Wes Ayers>With an additional floor, we ended up at $251,000 at 5 floors, 236, and then at 6 at 226.

1109
02:18:00.968 --> 02:18:10.289
<v Wes Ayers>That 6th floor I'm gonna put an asterisk on because with 6 floors based on the current building codes, we wouldn't be able to build 5 stories of wood frame construction.

1110
02:18:10.308 --> 02:18:11.109
<v Wes Ayers>We'd have to add concrete.

1111
02:18:11.509 --> 02:18:13.869
<v Wes Ayers>So that's probably not a realistic number.

1112
02:18:13.869 --> 02:18:16.949
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So about 15,000, 10,000 to 15,000.

1113
02:18:16.949 --> 02:18:18.789
<v Wes Ayers>10,000 To 15,000.

1114
02:18:18.789 --> 02:18:19.439
<v Ian Crozier>More.

1115
02:18:19.449 --> 02:18:20.009
<v Ian Crozier>Oh no, it's quite a bit more.

1116
02:18:20.009 --> 02:18:20.929
<v Wes Ayers>It's a lot more than that.

1117
02:18:20.929 --> 02:18:22.929
<v Wes Ayers>So we're talking up to 40,000.

1118
02:18:23.079 --> 02:18:27.840
<v Wes Ayers>$10,000 Or more per, like once you add, get up to the 5th floor?

1119
02:18:27.840 --> 02:18:28.260
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Per floor.

1120
02:18:28.260 --> 02:18:31.639
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Per floor, it sounded like it was $10,000 to $15,000 per unit.

1121
02:18:31.639 --> 02:18:32.399
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Per unit.

1122
02:18:32.399 --> 02:18:33.000
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay.

1123
02:18:33.000 --> 02:18:40.659
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And that's not the sales price reduction, that's the reduction in the cost of building that unit.

1124
02:18:40.659 --> 02:18:41.500
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Is that accurate?

1125
02:18:42.040 --> 02:18:42.459
<v Wes Ayers>Right.

1126
02:18:42.459 --> 02:18:50.440
<v Wes Ayers>And we can just always assume that our sales price is going to be highly correlated to our construction costs because that's—.

1127
02:18:50.440 --> 02:18:56.819
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>It's $10,000 to $15,000 less per unit for construction, maybe it's, I don't know, $7,000 to $12,000 less in sales price.

1128
02:18:56.819 --> 02:19:02.959
<v Ian Crozier>But we, sorry, to be clear, it was $40,000 per unit less was the number.

1129
02:19:02.959 --> 02:19:04.620
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I'm not hearing $40,000.

1130
02:19:04.620 --> 02:19:06.500
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I'm sorry, I want to—.

1131
02:19:06.500 --> 02:19:06.899
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah.

1132
02:19:06.899 --> 02:19:12.690
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We heard a lot in the presentation about all of the many benefits we're trying to get to.

1133
02:19:12.920 --> 02:19:20.658
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And this one panacea, a single stairway, And I didn't hear the connection between those 2 things.

1134
02:19:20.708 --> 02:19:25.878
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And I have some questions about that later, but I'm trying to understand the basic facts here.

1135
02:19:25.959 --> 02:19:35.593
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>'Cause there was like, like I said, it sounded like this presentation is saying this is a panacea to get everything we need fixed in our housing structure.

1136
02:19:35.657 --> 02:19:37.834
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And I just don't think any one thing is gonna do that.

1137
02:19:38.111 --> 02:19:38.257
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>No.

1138
02:19:38.307 --> 02:19:48.099
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So I'd like to make sure these numbers are accurate because you're saying 40,000, What I saw on the numbers you put up and heard you just say was $10,000 to $15,000 per unit per floor.

1139
02:19:48.659 --> 02:19:49.734
<v Wes Ayers>Right, so let me clarify.

1140
02:19:49.861 --> 02:20:01.287
<v Wes Ayers>So our baseline at 2,500 square feet per floor plate at 3 stories, which is 7,500 square feet, is $278,000.

1141
02:20:01.415 --> 02:20:05.742
<v Wes Ayers>And that's based on real-world construction on a building we recently completed, right?

1142
02:20:06.143 --> 02:20:19.838
<v Wes Ayers>If I took those same costs, right, and I took essentially the fixed costs like the roof, the foundation, you know, the utilities and all of the things that I could identify in the budget that are more or less, you know, gonna basically not be a part of this.

1143
02:20:19.888 --> 02:20:20.858
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>You need those no matter what.

1144
02:20:21.117 --> 02:20:22.086
<v Wes Ayers>Right, right.

1145
02:20:22.152 --> 02:20:25.127
<v Wes Ayers>And then I divide the rest by each floor plate.

1146
02:20:25.531 --> 02:20:29.923
<v Wes Ayers>I can sort of extrapolate, right, what each additional unit savings there would be.

1147
02:20:30.454 --> 02:20:36.101
<v Wes Ayers>So at 4 floors, 15 homes, right?

1148
02:20:36.635 --> 02:20:37.444
<v Wes Ayers>At about $251,000.

1149
02:20:38.649 --> 02:20:47.573
<v Wes Ayers>So the additional floor is saving $17,000, sorry, $27,000 per unit, right?

1150
02:20:47.637 --> 02:20:49.444
<v Wes Ayers>By adding one additional floor.

1151
02:20:50.460 --> 02:20:54.751
<v Wes Ayers>Then at 5 floors, that nets 19 total units, right?

1152
02:20:54.932 --> 02:20:59.191
<v Wes Ayers>And we get down to $236,000, which is a difference in $20,000.

1153
02:20:59.291 --> 02:21:00.005
<v Candace Avalos>$20,000.

1154
02:21:00.889 --> 02:21:01.540
<v Ian Crozier>Sorry.

1155
02:21:01.540 --> 02:21:01.799
<v Steve Novick>$42,000.

1156
02:21:01.799 --> 02:21:03.899
<v Wes Ayers>Yeah, $42,000.

1157
02:21:03.899 --> 02:21:05.659
<v Wes Ayers>And where I added the asterisk—.

1158
02:21:05.659 --> 02:21:09.780
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I'm sorry, $251,000 to $236,000 is not $42,000.

1159
02:21:09.780 --> 02:21:13.139
<v Ian Crozier>Just going the baseline currently allowed today, right?

1160
02:21:13.139 --> 02:21:14.059
<v Ian Crozier>3 floors.

1161
02:21:14.059 --> 02:21:21.319
<v Ian Crozier>So it's going from the baseline, what's allowed today, to what we would, to allowing 5 floors.

1162
02:21:21.319 --> 02:21:23.959
<v Ian Crozier>That's the, you get $42,000 in benefit.

1163
02:21:23.959 --> 02:21:24.479
<v Wes Ayers>Total.

1164
02:21:24.479 --> 02:21:26.040
<v Wes Ayers>Right, from $278,000 at the 3 floors.

1165
02:21:27.254 --> 02:21:28.904
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So for 2 floors—.

1166
02:21:28.968 --> 02:21:30.101
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>For 2 floors additional.

1167
02:21:30.376 --> 02:21:32.430
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay, and I was trying to get the number per floor.

1168
02:21:32.817 --> 02:21:33.724
<v Wes Ayers>Okay, apologies.

1169
02:21:33.852 --> 02:21:38.072
<v Wes Ayers>Right, okay, it's not per floor, it's per unit, and that's why it continues to scale.

1170
02:21:39.536 --> 02:21:40.083
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Understood.

1171
02:21:40.277 --> 02:21:40.438
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay.

1172
02:21:40.760 --> 02:21:44.236
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I'm sorry, per unit per floor was the number I was trying to get to there.

1173
02:21:44.317 --> 02:21:44.833
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Oh, okay, right.

1174
02:21:44.880 --> 02:21:48.873
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So per unit for 2 floors, you're saying $42,000.

1175
02:21:48.953 --> 02:21:49.099
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay.

1176
02:21:52.019 --> 02:22:04.761
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I'm just trying— so per unit for a single floor addition, it scales, but we're talking about for the first floor, $20,000 to $30,000.

1177
02:22:05.825 --> 02:22:16.900
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Then it sounded like it was about $15,000, then $10,000 per floor that we add per unit, that the construction cost goes down, the sales cost goes down some amount of that.

1178
02:22:16.967 --> 02:22:17.032
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah.

1179
02:22:17.170 --> 02:22:17.345
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>That.

1180
02:22:17.425 --> 02:22:20.998
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We don't really know how much cost savings, but some portion of that.

1181
02:22:21.608 --> 02:22:28.066
<v Wes Ayers>I think it's safe to assume that it would be directly proportional because we're always having to make some profit even on the baseline.

1182
02:22:28.194 --> 02:22:30.278
<v Wes Ayers>So if we say our profit's always, you know—.

1183
02:22:30.278 --> 02:22:32.729
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So it's a portion of it.

1184
02:22:32.809 --> 02:22:33.082
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Right.

1185
02:22:33.387 --> 02:22:34.604
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay.

1186
02:22:36.094 --> 02:22:40.582
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And you had said something about tens of thousands of lots that could be affected by this.

1187
02:22:41.479 --> 02:22:54.310
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Is that the total Is that the total number of 5,000-square-foot lots in the city that you were referring to, or is that based on some sort of criteria around how likely something would be to be redeveloped?

1188
02:22:54.391 --> 02:22:58.230
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>What is— what should we expect that number to actually mean?

1189
02:22:58.664 --> 02:23:02.647
<v Michael Anderson>It's been a little while since I put that memo together, but that actually speaks to your earlier question.

1190
02:23:02.744 --> 02:23:05.121
<v Michael Anderson>I appreciate the questions about cost reduction.

1191
02:23:05.490 --> 02:23:13.774
<v Michael Anderson>The other calculation here for the sort of calculating the possible benefit of the policy is it greatly increases the size of the denominator, right?

1192
02:23:13.854 --> 02:23:20.462
<v Michael Anderson>The number of possible lots where you can add housing increases the taller you can go, right?

1193
02:23:20.575 --> 02:23:24.777
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So are you looking at total number of 5,000-square-foot lots?

1194
02:23:24.985 --> 02:23:28.320
<v Michael Anderson>Right, no, there's vastly more 5,000-square-foot lots in the city.

1195
02:23:28.978 --> 02:23:45.899
<v Michael Anderson>What I did for that calculation was I assumed a certain low development value on the existing lot, and then I took a low percentage percentage of that share to estimate the number that would turn over in a given year and the number that would develop in a given year and so on.

1196
02:23:45.963 --> 02:23:47.415
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay, that's really helpful.

1197
02:23:47.463 --> 02:23:47.754
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you.

1198
02:23:47.802 --> 02:23:49.254
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>It would be great to see those numbers.

1199
02:23:49.399 --> 02:23:52.685
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>It sounds like you have a report that includes them somewhere that's separate from this.

1200
02:23:52.977 --> 02:23:59.337
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Okay, um, I want to go back to the question I asked about state building code.

1201
02:24:00.240 --> 02:24:16.897
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>At one point, I don't remember who, but somebody talked about sprinklers as a and maybe the safety information that's out there, at least on the life safety side, isn't as great as some have portrayed.

1202
02:24:17.716 --> 02:24:21.358
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>When do sprinklers become required under our state building code?

1203
02:24:21.439 --> 02:24:25.561
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I'm sorry, I should know this, and it's been a few years since I worked on state building code issues.

1204
02:24:25.834 --> 02:24:32.027
<v Wes Ayers>Yeah, so the 3-story building that we're using as the baseline is required, like it's already, sprinklers are already required.

1205
02:24:32.156 --> 02:24:36.154
<v Wes Ayers>And then any building that would be 4 or 5 or 6, they all require sprinklers.

1206
02:24:37.212 --> 02:24:49.352
<v Wes Ayers>And so then there are other thresholds depending on which type of 3-story building you build and which type of essentially addressable system, right, is in effect.

1207
02:24:49.415 --> 02:24:51.165
<v Wes Ayers>And this is your fire alarm system.

1208
02:24:51.439 --> 02:24:51.985
<v Wes Ayers>Yeah.

1209
02:24:52.402 --> 02:24:55.147
<v Wes Ayers>But I believe recently that was also upgraded.

1210
02:24:55.195 --> 02:25:03.084
<v Wes Ayers>So any 4-story building, any sort of taller building That's helpful.

1211
02:25:03.131 --> 02:25:03.438
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you.

1212
02:25:04.323 --> 02:25:08.639
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I have like 10 more questions that came up during the presentation.

1213
02:25:08.721 --> 02:25:11.413
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I'll hold those, but I do want to make a few comments.

1214
02:25:14.222 --> 02:25:23.215
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>There was a lot in that presentation where I am worried that we are confusing cause and effect, or maybe seeing a single solution as a panacea.

1215
02:25:23.279 --> 02:25:23.376
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah.

1216
02:25:25.361 --> 02:25:31.222
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>To fix all of the problems we have in our housing market right now.

1217
02:25:31.639 --> 02:25:37.050
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And that concerns me because there are Portlanders who are listening, maybe only 5, as the chair has said.

1218
02:25:37.244 --> 02:25:41.242
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I assume that more people listen and that we're far more popular than that though, Chair Avalos.

1219
02:25:42.558 --> 02:25:43.217
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Maybe 6.

1220
02:25:43.344 --> 02:25:48.450
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And I don't want people to think that this one change is going to fix everything.

1221
02:25:49.462 --> 02:25:50.394
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Because I don't think it will.

1222
02:25:51.389 --> 02:26:00.269
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>There was a great picture that you all had on slide 21 about a common lobby with 3 units around it.

1223
02:26:01.665 --> 02:26:14.318
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>But I could draw a line between units 1 and 2 and draw a stairwell on the side, and we would still have a common lobby and have a secondary stairwell and only slightly diminish the total number of units.

1224
02:26:14.559 --> 02:26:19.970
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Total square footage of those units and have that, that safety escape there.

1225
02:26:20.772 --> 02:26:35.721
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And so I'm struggling to understand why all of the many problems you named are solvable only if we move to a single stairwell and not if we design differently with 2 stairwells.

1226
02:26:36.814 --> 02:26:39.592
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I understand that there is some mixed data around life safety.

1227
02:26:39.639 --> 02:26:40.009
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I think that's a fair point.

1228
02:26:41.136 --> 02:26:41.490
<v Unidentified speaker>Safety.

1229
02:26:41.653 --> 02:26:50.272
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And when we talk about life safety, if we mean strictly people dying, newer buildings mean fewer people die.

1230
02:26:50.402 --> 02:26:57.345
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So yes, if there is a single stairwell in a newer building compared to an older building, absolutely people are safer.

1231
02:26:59.346 --> 02:27:01.801
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>But we still have impact.

1232
02:27:02.173 --> 02:27:10.281
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We still have firefighters who can't move smoke to one stairwell while evacuating people down another.

1233
02:27:11.090 --> 02:27:20.388
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>We still have firefighters trying to evacuate people with mobility challenges down the same stairwell that hose lines are coming up, right?

1234
02:27:20.436 --> 02:27:31.134
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>There are still— it still takes longer to evacuate a building, especially if it's a larger building, which means there's more smoke inhalation and long-term health impacts.

1235
02:27:32.013 --> 02:27:45.846
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So when we narrow our concern to life safety, meaning people who die, we're missing the extra work, the extra firefighters who are needed who can't respond to other calls, the longer-term health impacts.

1236
02:27:46.933 --> 02:28:15.183
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And it may be that we ultimately need to move in this direction, but I am struggling with thinking that what I'm hearing here is that we need to take on a risk, because it is a risk, in order to get any of these benefits, in order to get units that have 2 sides of light or that can have smaller buildings, right?

1237
02:28:15.424 --> 02:28:32.458
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I heard a lot of conversation about long, dark stairwells in big buildings compared to common common areas, but what we were shown were pictures of long, huge buildings compared to a few small buildings on the same lot.

1238
02:28:32.634 --> 02:28:40.389
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Well, we can do that again, back to slide 21, with a single stairwell still.

1239
02:28:40.774 --> 02:28:49.461
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And if we need to talk about distance between stairwells so that we can have smaller buildings, let's talk about that, but still have that benefit.

1240
02:28:49.510 --> 02:28:49.879
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you.

1241
02:28:53.114 --> 02:29:09.988
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I would love to see us, or maybe even be part of a broader conversation about what Portlanders want to see on what we've historically considered single-family lots that now actually have a lot of flexibility to build in many different ways on them, those 5,000-square-foot lots.

1242
02:29:12.778 --> 02:29:31.307
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>But I'm hearing a whole lot of concerns brought up, and I'm I'm not seeing the line between this one change, which does bring those safety risks, and all of the many solutions or all of the many problems that it seems to be solving.

1243
02:29:32.079 --> 02:29:34.093
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I just, I don't see that in the pictures we're showing.

1244
02:29:34.221 --> 02:29:40.875
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>So, Chair, I assume that we're getting this presentation because I think you and your Vice Chair are really interested in this policy change.

1245
02:29:41.942 --> 02:30:25.170
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And I want to say all of that because I am very concerned that we are conflating what could be an important policy change but brings with it real risk that I think is being downplayed with building types that are so different from what we're being shown this would be So I hope that if we're going to talk about policy here, we do it in a way that is much more— that is tighter and that is clear about what the actual benefits from a single change would be and honest about what the risks would be.

1246
02:30:26.840 --> 02:30:27.049
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you.

1247
02:30:28.828 --> 02:30:29.621
<v Candace Avalos>Okay, thank you.

1248
02:30:29.702 --> 02:30:30.203
<v Candace Avalos>Councilor Novick.

1249
02:30:30.269 --> 02:30:31.806
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you, Madam Chair.

1250
02:30:32.355 --> 02:30:33.811
<v Mitch Green>And Councilor Herbold, I think you're right.

1251
02:30:34.984 --> 02:30:45.708
<v Mitch Green>Councilor Pirtle-Guiney, as a baseball fan, you should know that there's no such thing as a panacea for anything, because if Shohei Ohtani can play for the California Angels and the Angels can still suck, that just shows that no one thing solves anything in the world.

1252
02:30:47.168 --> 02:30:49.063
<v Mitch Green>Thanks for asking the question about sprinkler requirements.

1253
02:30:49.111 --> 02:30:50.058
<v Mitch Green>I was going to ask that too.

1254
02:30:50.171 --> 02:31:04.363
<v Mitch Green>I'm looking at this Pew study from, I think, early last year that said that construction— that the requirement of a double stairway adds about 6 to 13% to construction costs in a 4 to 6 story building on a small lot.

1255
02:31:05.086 --> 02:31:26.594
<v Mitch Green>One of the things it said, which I've now lost and can't find, but it said that you could have, in addition, if you're going to allow single stairway buildings, you could add additional safety requirements such as reducing floor area or requiring smoke control measures or insisting on short distance to exits.

1256
02:31:27.077 --> 02:31:35.500
<v Mitch Green>And I was just wondering if those are options that you've seen play out in Seattle or New York.

1257
02:31:35.548 --> 02:31:37.259
<v Mitch Green>Have those kind of requirements been adopted?

1258
02:31:37.808 --> 02:31:46.064
<v Mitch Green>And if they were adopted, what do you think the cost would be and how much would that limit the positive cost impact of allowing single stairway buildings?

1259
02:31:47.859 --> 02:31:52.221
<v Michael Anderson>I think that all those are part of the Seattle code as I understand it.

1260
02:31:54.269 --> 02:31:57.343
<v Michael Anderson>Most of those are part of Appendix Q as well.

1261
02:31:58.132 --> 02:32:05.908
<v Michael Anderson>So we're certainly talking about a multivariable situation where some things trigger at different heights.

1262
02:32:06.248 --> 02:32:11.388
<v Michael Anderson>So you get full sprinkler coverage with the 4th story when it would've previously been the 5th story, things like that.

1263
02:32:13.847 --> 02:32:13.944
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Yeah.

1264
02:32:14.250 --> 02:32:16.838
<v Mitch Green>What smoke control measures can you adopt?

1265
02:32:17.483 --> 02:32:22.773
<v Michael Anderson>I think that might be a reference to the pressurization of the stairwell That Seattle requires.

1266
02:32:22.822 --> 02:32:27.396
<v Michael Anderson>So they require essentially you put a fan, as I understand it, not my expertise, at the top of the stairwell.

1267
02:32:27.781 --> 02:32:28.230
<v Michael Anderson>Does that seem right?

1268
02:32:28.888 --> 02:32:34.250
<v Michael Anderson>And I've heard different reports, including from people in the fire service, about how effective that actually is as an active system.

1269
02:32:34.683 --> 02:32:43.879
<v Michael Anderson>But that's something that Seattle decided to put in as a way to ensure that smoke is not flowing into the stairwell during an event when there's smoke in one unit.

1270
02:32:44.698 --> 02:32:53.527
<v Mitch Green>And do you have, like, the names of actual people in Seattle or New York that we could call to sort of You know, ask them, you know, their perspective on what they've done.

1271
02:32:53.881 --> 02:33:01.290
<v Michael Anderson>I promise you that the Seattle Fire and Building Code folks are sick of getting this call from every city in the country.

1272
02:33:02.056 --> 02:33:09.925
<v Michael Anderson>But yeah, there's— so I do not know the names myself.

1273
02:33:10.281 --> 02:33:10.880
<v Michael Anderson>Maybe somebody else does.

1274
02:33:14.588 --> 02:33:15.581
<v Mitch Green>I don't need to have it today.

1275
02:33:15.780 --> 02:33:24.289
<v Mitch Green>I was just wondering if you, you know, If you could find the least sick Seattle Building Code person to call, that would be great, 'cause I really would like to do that.

1276
02:33:26.520 --> 02:33:28.670
<v Mitch Green>You think one of you might be able to find a name?

1277
02:33:30.420 --> 02:33:30.644
<v Kevin Foster>Okay.

1278
02:33:31.254 --> 02:33:31.543
<v Ian Crozier>Certainly.

1279
02:33:32.620 --> 02:33:33.086
<v Mitch Green>Thank you.

1280
02:33:35.513 --> 02:33:36.043
<v Candace Avalos>Vice Chair Green?

1281
02:33:37.843 --> 02:33:41.566
<v Mitch Green>Yeah, I just wanted to address some of Councilor Pirtle-Guiney's comments and concerns.

1282
02:33:43.361 --> 02:34:11.350
<v Mitch Green>I think just to level set here, the invitation to have the presentation was to— I don't have any immediate policy goals here, nor does the chair, aside from my just general interest in upzoning, which I think has been abundantly clear across a range of issues, but was a desire to see opportunities to pull into this committee some of the interesting conversations that are relevant I think it's really important to have conversations that are relevant to the committee that are informal and then happen outside of it.

1283
02:34:11.350 --> 02:34:19.729
<v Mitch Green>'Cause I had the opportunity to be part of a conversation with a bunch of design students and some practitioners, some architects, some developers.

1284
02:34:19.729 --> 02:34:26.389
<v Mitch Green>And being able to share that with members of the committee who have a vote and a voice here felt like a really good use of time.

1285
02:34:27.489 --> 02:34:28.870
<v Mitch Green>But then also to have this dialogue.

1286
02:34:30.430 --> 02:34:46.471
<v Mitch Green>So I— if we were to adopt anything that's not already on the books, It wouldn't pass muster if we couldn't answer very clearly, like, what all of the trade-offs are and what sort of, like, interactions there are with life safety and the like.

1287
02:34:47.626 --> 02:35:08.862
<v Mitch Green>I think part of the purpose here was to also recognize that even under allowable circumstances that have already been adopted, it's challenging to even do what we're allowed to do because we've got some other other sort of corner pieces that haven't been solved for that are frankly on the administrative rulemaking side, the fire marshal and the like.

1288
02:35:08.943 --> 02:35:25.683
<v Mitch Green>And so starting these conversations just openly to say if we are going to make tweaks and ask our partners in public safety to work with us and be partners on and kind of try to benchmark— well, first of all, come with that conversation with us.

1289
02:35:25.861 --> 02:35:33.863
<v Mitch Green>We start I think in the envisioning process too, so it's not completely just disconnected, I think, from the design principles.

1290
02:35:35.728 --> 02:35:54.865
<v Mitch Green>I also want to note that these would be new construction buildings, and the fire risk that exists in most of these situations are because they're old building stock with antiquated systems that have building materials that are given over to fire conditions.

1291
02:35:55.282 --> 02:36:09.118
<v Mitch Green>And, you know, likely— well, what I would like to see, I suppose, but what I have seen is a lot of use of engineered timber materials like mass timber, cross-laminated timber, which is very fire resistant.

1292
02:36:09.183 --> 02:36:18.819
<v Mitch Green>And so I think there's a way to have this conversation that says these are not static— like, fire risk is not a function of Yeah.

1293
02:36:18.819 --> 02:36:18.819
<v Mitch Green>So, like, I think that's a good point.

1294
02:36:18.819 --> 02:36:20.659
<v Mitch Green>I think that we're looking at these things as static variables independent of each other.

1295
02:36:20.659 --> 02:36:33.659
<v Mitch Green>But, like, when you take together all the variables of what goes into making a building and what goes into making a place where someone lives, they all interact with each other that then contribute jointly to the fire risk.

1296
02:36:33.659 --> 02:36:52.659
<v Mitch Green>And so if you're saying, okay, we have one fewer staircase, but we built this thing with cross-laminated timber, and we have egress opportunities that are closer to where people And so on and so forth, then you might have the case where it's a joint, like on the whole, it's safer for everyone.

1297
02:36:53.398 --> 02:36:55.694
<v Mitch Green>I think that's what I've seen when I've been in these conversations.

1298
02:36:55.759 --> 02:37:05.040
<v Mitch Green>And so what you're seeing here is sort of like, hey, let's pull some of the conversations I get to have outside in my district and start to talk about it there.

1299
02:37:05.281 --> 02:37:09.246
<v Mitch Green>So rest assured, I don't have something waiting in the wings that I'm gonna plop down here.

1300
02:37:09.310 --> 02:37:09.454
<v Mitch Green>Thank you.

1301
02:37:10.729 --> 02:37:23.959
<v Mitch Green>I think some of this stuff probably needs some painful land use process and maybe some state action, but, you know, and some tough conversations with the fire marshal maybe.

1302
02:37:24.120 --> 02:37:25.379
<v Mitch Green>But we want that to be generative.

1303
02:37:25.879 --> 02:37:31.246
<v Mitch Green>We want that to be grounded in like us caring about, you know, I think the thing you care about.

1304
02:37:31.522 --> 02:37:33.322
<v Mitch Green>So just wanted to add that and respond to that.

1305
02:37:35.389 --> 02:37:35.859
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Chair Mayer.

1306
02:37:36.782 --> 02:37:37.447
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Thank you, Vice Chair.

1307
02:37:37.997 --> 02:37:43.747
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I appreciate the response, and I think there's conversation to be had there.

1308
02:37:44.670 --> 02:38:00.587
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>What concerned me was hearing this kind of broad array of benefits that looked to me in the presentation and the pictures like they were dependent on a lot of different changes.

1309
02:38:04.147 --> 02:38:26.118
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And I think sometimes there is an inclination, not by this council in particular, but in, in lawmaking and in policy work, to get excited about one solution that has some benefits and attribute many other benefits to it and move forward in a way that creates risk for other solutions.

1310
02:38:27.209 --> 02:38:32.572
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>Without being clear about that risk and with promises that don't come to fruition.

1311
02:38:33.550 --> 02:38:42.270
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And if we're talking about a lot of lots, probably in my district, I'm not willing to have us do that.

1312
02:38:42.655 --> 02:38:51.888
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I think a conversation holistically about how we create safe buildings that provide the living environments that Portlanders are looking for is really Thank you.

1313
02:38:51.935 --> 02:38:57.315
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I think that this is absolutely important, and this should be one of many factors that we weigh together.

1314
02:38:58.439 --> 02:39:13.066
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>But to move in this direction quickly, which is what I was worried was coming next, that sometimes happens here, we get a presentation and then suddenly we're moving quickly, was— is, I will say, pretty concerning to me.

1315
02:39:13.692 --> 02:39:17.129
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>I know that there are studies that take into account different variables.

1316
02:39:17.322 --> 02:39:22.412
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>That show different option— different risk patterns.

1317
02:39:24.198 --> 02:39:28.260
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>But I think there's a lot more for us to understand about how those risks interact.

1318
02:39:28.405 --> 02:39:35.269
<v Elana Pirtle-Guiney>And I think we need to take seriously the practitioners who are saying that this could make their jobs harder to do.

1319
02:39:40.506 --> 02:39:40.898
<v Candace Avalos>All right.

1320
02:39:41.697 --> 02:39:43.018
<v Candace Avalos>I don't see anyone else in the queue.

1321
02:39:43.888 --> 02:39:46.656
<v Candace Avalos>Do we have any final thoughts, committee or panelists?

1322
02:39:48.729 --> 02:39:57.975
<v Ian Crozier>We'd just like to say thank you so much for the opportunity to be here today and to talk about this subject that we think is very important.

1323
02:39:59.829 --> 02:40:00.414
<v Candace Avalos>Yeah, thank you.

1324
02:40:01.308 --> 02:40:02.331
<v Candace Avalos>Thank you so much for your time.

1325
02:40:03.846 --> 02:40:14.944
<v Candace Avalos>With that, colleagues, our— this is our only committee meeting in August, so our next meeting is going to be on Tuesday, September 1st, after the council recess, and we're going to have updates soon on that agenda.

1326
02:40:15.680 --> 02:40:19.253
<v Candace Avalos>Uh, but I will go ahead and adjourn this meeting at 4:34 PM.

