City Life Committee Meeting

0:57Hey there, can you guys hear me?

5:05Good afternoon.

5:06It is 2:01 PM on Tuesday, May 26th.

5:10I am calling to order today's meeting of the City Life Committee.

5:16Wendy, could you please call the roll?

5:19Good afternoon.

5:20Councilor Ryan.

5:23Here.

5:23Councilor Morillo?

5:26Here.

5:26Councilor Zimmerman?

5:28Here.

5:29Councilor Avalos?

5:30Present.

5:32Councilor Pirtle-Guiney?

5:33Here.

5:33Thank you.

5:35And Christopher, could you please read the statement of conduct?

5:39Welcome to the meeting of the City Life Committee.

5:41To testify before this committee in person or virtually, you must sign up in advance on the committee agenda at www.portland.gov/council/agenda/citylife.

5:52Information on engaging with the committee can be found at this link.

5:56Registration for virtual testimony closes 1 hour prior to the meeting.

5:58In-person testifiers must sign up before the agenda item is heard.

6:02If public testimony will be taken on an item, individuals may testify for 3 minutes unless the chair states otherwise.

6:07Your microphone will be muted when your time is over.

6:09The chair preserves order.

6:10Disruptive conduct such as shouting, refusing to conclude one's testimony when your time is up, or interrupting others' testimony or committee deliberations will not be allowed.

6:18Thank you, Councilor Dan Ryan.

6:18If you cause a disruption, a warning will be given.

6:19Further disruption will result in ejection from the meeting.

6:22Anyone who fails to leave once ejected is subject to arrest for trespass.

6:25Additionally, the committee may take a short recess and reconvene virtually.

6:28Your testimony should address the matter being considered.

6:30When testifying, state your name for the record.

6:32If you're a lobbyist, identify the organization you represent.

6:35Virtual testifiers should unmute themselves when the clerk calls your name.

6:37Thank you.

6:39Thank you, Christopher.

6:40Colleagues, we have 4 items on the agenda today.

6:42We'll start with an update we have an update and overview of a policy that the former Labor and Workforce Committee was considering that got transferred to this committee around fair transparency for our transportation network companies and their contracted drivers.

7:03Then we will hear from Councilor Novick's team about a change he is proposing in city code around signs in the right-of-way.

7:12And then we have 2 items from the administration that are the next steps step in the dissolution of the Mt.

7:18Hood Cable Regulatory Commission, which we first heard about a few weeks ago.

7:23Before we move into all of that, do we have anybody signed up for public input today?

7:29Yes, there are 6 individuals.

7:31Okay, great.

7:32So we have item number 1, public input on City Life Committee topics.

7:38And just as a reminder for those signed up to testify, well, you'll be given 3 minutes each, and I'll call up folks in groups of So for those testifying in person, you'll see the timer countdown displayed on the monitor in front of the testimony table.

7:54And for those testifying virtually, the timer is displayed in Zoom.

7:57You'll hear the timer chime twice, once as a warning when there are 30 seconds left.

8:02So I'll call the first— oh, and finally, before you begin your testimony, if you could please state your name for the record.

8:09So I'll call up the first 3, Nathaniel Hudson Hartman, Angela Grigsby and Ahmed Ashamani.

8:36Go right ahead.

8:37All right.

8:39Anyhow.

9:09And if I seem desperate, it's because I'm empathically passing on that anxiety and depression to you all that I have been feeling from the community members that I serve.

9:21So all that aside, I am so, so grateful to pick up this conversation we started here so long ago in this very room with another quintet of your beautiful faces.

9:32I would like to just take a moment and ask every driver who came here today to please raise their hand if they took a trip where Uber and Lyft took at least half of their fare.

9:47I'm going to end it here because I want to leave as much time for the other drivers to speak as much as possible.

9:52So I'll just end with this.

9:54When this is all said and done, I want us to be able to answer these questions.

10:00Thank you.

10:27I'll call up the next group of 3.

10:30Bob Nesbitt, Caleb Price, and Samuel Araya.

10:49Go right ahead when you're ready.

10:51Thank you.

10:53Just want to thank you for letting us address your committee today.

10:58I've been doing this for 13 years.

11:02About 5 years ago, I was driving somebody from here to Salem, and I got to drop them off, and I got a second call.

11:12And when I got there, there was nobody to pick up, and I got a call from Lyft saying it was Lyft.

11:17And they said that somebody did not resemble my profile picture, although I have a beard and gray hair.

11:22It's not— anyway, they wanted my— a picture of myself, my driver's license, my credit card on file.

11:31It was a scam.

11:33And the next day when I went to get online for Lyft, they told me that I had fraudulent activity on my account and I couldn't drive anymore.

11:43I probably tried 10 times to get back on the Lyft app, and they kept telling me they talked to security.

11:51And every time I talked to security, he said it wasn't his job.

11:54They sent it upstairs and I never heard back.

11:56So I just voided and I went on with my Uber.

12:02I'm talking about— I think we're very vulnerable in terms of what we make.

12:08Yeah.

12:09I've been doing this 13 years and my income seems like it's harder for me to make what I used to make.

12:16There are no incentives anymore.

12:19The hour— excuse me, the mileage rate hasn't improved.

12:23And I just wanted to give you some ideas.

12:27Seattle pays $1.63 a mile, San Francisco $1.40, New York City $1.28, Portland is $0.70.

12:35The federal allowance for driving on income tax is 72.5 cents a mile.

12:43So we are basically not making any money.

12:48Upon picking up passengers, we never know where they're gonna go, how far they're gonna go, and what we're gonna make on a ride.

12:54And as other people have pointed out, the split that we get has been diminished.

13:00Thank you.

13:03So we're working longer hours to make ends meet.

13:07Our expenses have gone up exponentially.

13:10Anybody who's driving a gasoline car now, I don't know how you could afford it.

13:16I was driving a car that got 42 miles to a gallon and I was still spending $280 to $300 a month in gasoline.

13:24Now I've got an electric car.

13:25Yeah.

13:27Thank you.

13:28Uber last year on a national basis made $52 billion globally.

13:35It was an 18% increase over the year before.

13:39Am I done?

13:41The CEO made $39.4 million with his stock options.

13:46And I divided his income by 365 days a year.

13:52He would make $107,945 a day, and we struggle to make $200 a day.

13:59And it's getting harder and harder with all the expenses going up in terms of the price of cars, insurance, gasoline or electric.

14:08So we just implore you to support us.

14:11Thank you.

14:12Thank you very much.

14:16Go right ahead.

14:17Hi, good afternoon, committee members.

14:19My name is Samuel Araya.

14:20I live in District 3, Portland, Oregon.

14:23I was a rideshare driver for more than 10 years before Uber and Lyft wrongfully deactivated me for a mistake on my background check.

14:33They haven't made it easy for me.

14:35I don't get to speak to the real person.

14:38They make me text in English, which is not my first language.

14:42Now I'm struggling to find work and pay my bills.

14:46But even before I was deactivated.

14:48I was having to work more times, 6, 7 days a week to make the same money I made when I first started driving.

14:58Back then, Uber and Lyft paid me 80% of the fare.

15:02I don't know why they, they cut out my pay so much when they charging my riders so much more money and then keep the rest.

15:12Thank you.

15:14I see the receipt and just say, wow, I cannot afford to live.

15:17I have to pay all the costs— gas, tire maintenance.

15:21And Uber are a mastermind in avoiding costs and shifting the operational cost to the drivers.

15:31I just want to be fair again.

15:33If I get my job back, Uber and Lyft, for all of us drivers to be treated with dignity and respect, because right now I just don't feel I want to be able to work reasonable hours and then my riders to be charged fairly.

15:49I hope you all support us and help us make the rideshare fair for all of us again, just like used to be.

15:56Thank you.

15:58Thank you very much.

15:59You're welcome.

16:01Angela is joining us online.

16:03Angela, you can go ahead and unmute.

16:06Bob, Bob, could I ask you a question really quick?

16:09When you said, is that your name?

16:10Me right here?

16:11Yeah.

16:11Robert, yeah.

16:12And you said 70 cents in Portland and you compared it to all the other cities.

16:16What were you— what was the item you were comparing?

16:19Was it—.

16:19I'm sorry?

16:20When you said 70 cents in Portland and then you compared it to all the other cities.

16:24Yes.

16:25What was it that you were comparing?

16:27What was I comparing?

16:28Yeah, was it gas reimbursement?

16:31No, that's per mile.

16:33Miles, okay, tax.

16:34Thank you.

16:34I didn't know that was gas.

16:36I'm sorry, those are all per mile.

16:36That's it.

16:37Thanks.

16:37Seattle's $1.63.

16:38Yeah, yeah, that was all the cost per mile.

16:42You're welcome.

16:44Okay, let's move on to our— I think our final testifier.

16:48Is that correct?

16:50Yes, and we're trying to get one additional one online.

16:53He's having trouble joining Zoom.

16:55But Angela, can you hear us?

17:21Angela, can you try one more time?

17:23There you go.

17:24I see you now.

17:26There she is.

17:31Angela, we're not hearing you.

17:42Could we make sure she has the phone number if she wants to call in separately?

17:46Yeah, Angela, in your meeting invite there's also a phone number if you want to try calling back on your phone.

17:55Texted her the number too.

18:00I also texted it to Ahmed Alshammari as well.

18:04Angela, as well as the email, it sounds like Nathaniel may have sent you the number if that's more convenient to pull up.

18:19Wendy, do we have the other individual available in the meantime?

18:25They're both having some technical difficulties.

18:27Okay, colleagues, why don't we give it just a minute more to see if either of them can get the technology figured out?

18:34And if not, I suspect that their testimony may relate to the next agenda item, so we could move into that agenda item and then have them testify toward the end there instead.

18:47But let's give it just a minute more and see if we can get the sound working.

19:40Angela, have you been able to figure out the sound on your end?

19:45No.

19:46No, we still don't hear you.

19:52Okay, I'd like to keep us moving, and what I'd like to do, Wendy, if it works with your ability to track the meeting, is to invite these 2 individuals to try to testify after the next agenda item.

20:06Is that all right?

20:09Okay, wonderful.

20:09Well, thank you both for being here.

20:11Thank you.

20:12And Wendy, could we close this item and have you call agenda item 2?

20:17Agenda item number 2, discussion on policy proposal regarding the fare transparency and the transportation network company take rate.

20:26Item number 2026-173.

20:30Thank you, Wendy.

20:32Colleagues, this is a continuation of a conversation that was started in the previous Labor and Workforce Committee on earning standards for drivers of our transportation network companies, or TNCs.

20:46Those are companies like Uber and Lyft.

20:49And this is an item coming before us today from Councilor Novick and myself.

20:53And I think, Councilor Murillo, you are maybe considering Councilor Novick unfortunately is not able to join us, so I will give an overview of what we're looking at and why to provide some background.

21:11We will then hear from a few other parties and then have time for discussion and questions.

21:20Colleagues, I'm sure many of you have had the opportunity to meet with the drivers union, the folks whose blue shirts and tireless advocacy has been instrumental in advocacy even today make them hard to miss in City Hall.

21:33And I'm guessing that some of you have heard from Uber and Lyft and had conversations with them as well.

21:40The conversations with the drivers union that I have had have revolved mainly, mainly around 2 items: looking at what pay is for TNC drivers in Portland and looking at what support there is and the idea of a driver resource center.

21:58Today we'll mainly be focused on the first of those items.

22:03Councilor Novick and I, like I said, have teamed up to lead a conversation on earning standards.

22:09And importantly, this conversation is happening all over the country as Uber and Lyft rake in growing profits, but driver pay in many cases goes down, and benefits for these workers, because they have been categorized as independent contractors, in Massachusetts, voters approved a ballot measure which gave rideshare drivers the right to unionize and collectively bargain.

22:35And in California, drivers are close to forming a union.

22:38In 2018, New York City passed a minimum per-trip payment formula to ensure an earning standard for drivers.

22:46Minneapolis, Seattle, and Washington State have similar earning formulas.

22:51Thank you.

22:52As do other jurisdictions.

22:54This is neither a new conversation nor one that is unique to Portland.

22:59At the same time, we are seeing this reaction from the driver community here and across the country.

23:07TNCs have become an essential infrastructure.

23:11They help people get to work, to medical appointments, to the airport, and home safely at night.

23:16They help folks live in our city without needing a car of their own.

23:20They support our hospitality and tourism sectors and our arts and cultural institutions.

23:26We know that Portland needs a functioning, reliable rideshare market.

23:31It's reasonable to say that we want these companies operating here, and I don't fault the worry that some people have that passing meaningful earnings standards for drivers could threaten that.

23:41While I don't fault it, I will say that I reject the fact that those 2 things are inherently at odds.

23:46Thank you.

23:48While TNCs operate a critical service from out of state and outside of our city, drivers on the ground that do the actual transportation work are our neighbors.

23:58They are a part of our community.

24:00When an elderly neighbor uses rideshare to get to the grocery store, it is a local Portland driver who picks them up.

24:07When tourists use rideshare to explore our city, it is a Portlander who gets them to each location.

24:15Safely.

24:16And the people who do this work on the ground here, the drivers, are repeatedly reporting earnings that after their business expenses often fall well below minimum wage.

24:27And as we heard today, well below the required reimbursement for folks who are reimbursed under the federal requirements for driving.

24:38Because drivers are independent contractors, They cover the cost of doing business— their fuel, insurance, maintenance, depreciation of their vehicles, taxes— and they cover their own benefits, things that are assured to many other types of employees.

24:55Increasingly, they are doing so within a pricing system that is not transparent and that is difficult to understand.

25:03That's the crux of the problem that we are trying to solve.

25:06In collaboration with the drivers union and with Uber and Lyft.

25:12Councilor Novick and I are proposing a policy that is admittedly different from those other policies I named, which have been implemented elsewhere.

25:20What we're proposing to consider is a simple concept called a take rate.

25:24I want to explain what we're trying to achieve with the take rate, but I also want to be clear that the specifics of what this would look like here are part of an ongoing conversation scheduled with Uber and Lyft and with the drivers union over the next three months.

25:43Essentially, a take rate designates the share of a passenger's fare, a Portlander's fare when they ride in an Uber or a Lyft that goes to the company, and the share that goes to the driver after things like taxes, tips, and set fees that are imposed upon each ride.

26:00The goal is to ensure that there's a fair split that allows both the TNC.

26:04And their independent contractor, the driver, to receive compensation that covers the cost of doing business and allows them to earn a profit too.

26:14Historically, that split was relatively transparent and relatively stable.

26:19Lyft has even implemented a formal take rate structure themselves, currently promising a 70/30 split guarantee.

26:26Over time though, pricing models have evolved, and in many cases, the connection between the cost of a ride and the pay for drivers has weakened.

26:35Thank you.

26:36What riders pay and what drivers earn are no longer always clearly linked, and in many cases, the company's profit share has grown significantly while drivers' take-home pay has decreased.

26:48A take-rate framework is an attempt to realign the incentives.

26:53We should have a predictable, transparent relationship between what Portlanders as riders pay and what our neighbors who are drivers earn.

27:01A take rate ensures that drivers receive a fair share of the fare for the work that they perform while still allowing companies to cover their costs of doing business, invest in their platforms, and earn a profit for shareholders.

27:15And importantly, in fact critically, it does this without directly setting wages or dictating prices, which means TNCs still have flexibility to determine what the price of a ride is.

27:27And what it takes to operate profitably in Portland.

27:31Done right, this kind of structure also protects riders by tying company revenue to driver earnings.

27:37It discourages excessive markups and ensures that surge pricing is actually used to balance supply and demand rather than simply to extract additional revenue.

27:51I want to go back and acknowledge the concern I mentioned earlier that we've heard from a number of stakeholders.

27:56The importance of maintaining a strong and stable rideshare presence in Portland.

28:00It is not in anyone's interest, not in the interest of businesses in our city, our tourism economy, riders, Portlanders who use Uber and Lyft, or drivers, for services to become less available, less reliable, or leave the market altogether.

28:18That's why we need a system that works for workers and for companies.

28:22And it's why Councilor Novick and I are at the table with each party trying to negotiate language that will be workable, implementable, and fair.

28:35Under our new form of government, committees are a place to iterate, to discuss, to take feedback, to work a policy.

28:41So we don't have language before us today.

28:45We are in the process of iterating with stakeholders.

28:47Thank you.

28:47But we wanted to bring this forward to update you all on where the conversation is and get your feedback as well, so that when we are able to bring language forward in a few short months, we can do so with some feedback already in place and continue to iterate.

29:05The goal here is not to design a policy that is nice on paper but fails in practice.

29:10If that were the case, we might just propose a minimum wage and be done with it.

29:14The goal is to truly strike a balance and create a system where companies can continue to operate and grow, where the people doing the work can earn a living that reflects the reality of their costs and their contributions to the system, and where Portlanders still have access to this important service.

29:35Today's hearing is an important step.

29:37We will hear from drivers and their representatives about the on-the-ground realities of their work.

29:43We will hear from an economist who has done research on this industry and the market dynamics within the industry.

29:50And then my staff will go over the timeline and next steps.

29:54After that, we'll have an opportunity for discussion and questions.

29:58I will note that we invited Uber and Lyft to be a part of the conversation today.

30:03They declined this particular invitation.

30:05Thank you.

30:06But I do think it's important to share that they were invited to have a panel and that they are part of an active ongoing dialogue.

30:15And we expect that that engagement will continue both from, from their side and from ours.

30:21Their perspective matters, and we want to make sure that everybody is at the table as we do this work.

30:27With that, I know we have already heard from a few of our drivers here in Portland, but I believe we have some designated representatives from the drivers union who are going to share some additional information with us.

30:40I'd like to invite you all up at this time.

30:55Welcome and thank you for being here.

30:58Thank you.

30:59It's been a while.

31:02And we always welcome young testifiers also.

31:07It's good to know.

31:09We can't do this without him.

31:11You just have to adjust the microphone height a little bit.

31:14There we go.

31:23Thank you all for having us.

31:25Um, we presented a lot of these things in front of the, uh, Labor and Workforce Development Committee.

31:33It is great to be back here and in front of some new faces.

31:37Thank you.

31:40We're here for rideshare drivers, and we're especially here to talk about pay.

31:44I have some examples here, if everyone can see these slides, of some of these wildly disparate— wildly— I don't know how to word that— these wildly different fares.

32:01And you can see that in some of these cases, the driver is making only 16% of what a passenger pays.

32:09So some of these companies may say something like, you know, passenger rates will go up if this legislation passes.

32:19Passenger rates are already up.

32:21This ride took 33 minutes and cost the passenger over $100, almost $100.

32:28I have some more examples.

32:31Some of them are pretty bad.

32:35You can see this right here: 28 minutes, 17 miles.

32:40Why did it cost the passenger $110?

32:43And why did the driver only make $14?

32:48This isn't just unique to Lyft.

32:49These screenshots that you see on the app here, these are screenshots straight from Uber's app, where you can see.

32:58Uber is consistently taking a huge amount from passengers and paying the drivers much less, much less than 80%, much less than half in a lot of cases.

33:14This is unacceptable in our eyes when we are the ones with the costs.

33:20We are the ones with the rising gas prices that I'm sure everyone is well aware of right now.

33:28And as far as transparency is concerned, as you can see by this trip, it's kind of hard to deconstruct here, but the passenger actually paid about $52 including their tip.

33:43But Lyft likes to frame this in a way where it looks like the numbers are as close together as possible by showing that tip in your earnings down at the bottom.

33:54But excluding it from the passenger payment.

33:57Just one of many shady practices that these companies use.

34:04And why is it that 2 $110 trips— you'll notice the screenshot on the right from earlier— have significant, drastically different pay for the drivers?

34:18And that's why over these last few years we have formed I'd like to invite Nathaniel to, uh, make any additions that I might—.

34:40You're crushing it right now.

34:41Keep going.

34:43Um, yeah, thank you.

34:44Thank you, Joe.

34:45And, you know, this is a, a really important initiative.

34:49You know, something we've really learned, um, and I guess I'm editorializing here, is that through, through our advocacy, um, that you spoke of, um, Chair Pirtle-Guiney, we have discovered that this is not just an issue that matters to our merry band of rideshare drivers.

35:07You know, this is an issue that is important to a very, very large you know, group of our community members.

35:16And so Fair Rides Oregon represents a coalition of faith-based institutions, folks that are in the housing and food insecurity sectors, folks from labor, transit.

35:28And I have provided a copy to the clerk today of a letter of support from one of our community— one of our coalition community members, Dr. J.W.

35:38Matt Hennessey from the Vancouver First Baptist Church.

35:41And I'm just going to read just a small portion of that, if I may.

35:45Fair transparency for passengers and drivers and a limit on how much the companies can keep as commission are very reasonable prices— sorry, policies that benefit our entire community, local workers, and consumers alike.

35:59This is not just about drivers earning a living wage.

36:03This is protecting Portlanders from price gouging.

36:06The ride that you took to the Blazer game shouldn't cost you $30 more on the way home, especially when there is a good chance that Uber or Lyft is taking most of that.

36:17That surge pricing was supposed to, as you said, balance the market.

36:20It is being used to extract profits.

36:23And so putting a sensible cap on the commission that they can take not only ensures drivers earn a living wage, but ensures that riders are protected are protected from price gouging.

36:34These screenshots that we've been showing you, by the way, that is what you're seeing in the driver app.

36:39And it has been increasingly difficult to access that information.

36:43It is hidden in external fees and commercial insurance line items and, and Lyft fees and Uber fees, and it is increasingly difficult to suss that out.

36:55And the riders have no idea how much of that fare is going into Uber and Lyft's pocket and how oftentimes very little is going into ours.

37:03And so I just, I can't say this enough, the fare transparency, that is so important to, you know, help inform and educate kind of both sides, right?

37:14Um, so, you know, thank you so much for your time.

37:16Um, don't want to go too long because we, I know we got a lot of other things to get to.

37:21Um, so, um, you know, happy to answer any questions or you know, provide any additional context, clarity, um, you know, or feedback for you unless you've got something else.

37:33Nope.

37:34Okay, thank you all.

37:35We good.

37:35I want to know who the co-sponsor is.

37:39So, so, buddy, come on, let's go sit down.

37:43I think we should turn his mic on.

37:48I was wondering, I was wondering if he could give us his scariest face because we were getting a lot of faces during that.

37:53That would have been great.

37:56So, Councilors, if there are any questions for folks from the Drivers Union, why don't we ask those now before we move on to hearing from Professor Parrott?

38:07Councilor Zimmerman, did you have something?

38:09No, just the scary face.

38:11It was the best testimony.

38:13I know.

38:15Any other question for— next we are hearing from a professor, an economist who has done significant research on the So I do have a question if we're going to be transitioning.

38:27Yes, go ahead, Councilor.

38:29So there's some stuff here that can be a little hard to understand in terms of— I'm balancing roles here.

38:38So when a person elects to be an Uber or Lyft driver, what types of agreements Then are you agreeing to in the payment structure?

38:52What does the company tell you is what— now, you know, I've seen a lot of jobs are like, you can make up to this, and they do that stuff.

39:01I mean, like, what is the actual agreement of this is the percentage, or how is that structured when they bring a new driver in?

39:09Well, I would love to share my experience.

39:12I started over 10 years ago.

39:15In fact, it'll be 11 next month.

39:17And when I started, in the agreement, it was made very clear that I would make no less than 80% of what the passenger paid.

39:27Through terms of service changes and amendments and all these different things that you are forced to agree to if you want to go to work in the morning, that has changed.

39:37It has been whittled down, and so has my pay.

39:42Everything moved over to these new models of per mile per minute, and then it got cut down even further.

39:50And my pay has not changed since 2018.

39:57Yeah, the, uh, the short answer, uh, Vice Chair Zimmerman, right?

40:01Whatever title they gave me today.

40:03Okay.

40:04Um, yeah, the short answer is that it's very unclear.

40:10You, like, I think Joe hit the nail right on the head.

40:13You have to sign that terms of service, and literally they present that thing to you before you can even take any trips.

40:20And, you know, it gets lost in jumbled legal jargon.

40:23And as you are probably well aware, a large portion of our community, English is maybe their 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th language, and it's a work in progress.

40:32So it's very difficult to understand.

40:34But I think— Again, you hit it, you hit the nail right on the head.

40:38These companies self-imposed an 80% mandate back in 2015, 2016, 2017.

40:45So all we're asking them to do is just go back to something that they started doing already.

40:49Okay, and then, so some of the screenshots you shared, right, they're quite similar, I think.

41:03From a user perspective, we've all certainly taken a ride that was more than it was the last time, but we chalk it up to the hour is different, and so the demand was different.

41:15But you're highlighting some pretty significant differences there.

41:18So if I were to look at those 2 $110 rides that you highlighted in your presentation, once the driver is taking home $46, I think, and once they were taking home $14.

41:31Yes.

41:34I wanna make sure I didn't miss it.

41:36You're not asserting that we know why that is.

41:38You're just saying look at that disparity.

41:40Is that what we're taking from that?

41:43Yeah.

41:44Just for some context, and this is not anywhere that we can tell in their terms of service.

41:50This, like if you're a driver, you can go on like Uber and Lyft's website and look at what the, pay is per mile and per minute for your region, if one such structure still exists, which it does in Portland.

42:05And drivers are being paid $0.70 a mile and $0.24 a minute.

42:12So if you take a ride— oh, and was it $0.94 base fare?

42:16So the next time you take a ride, you can actually calculate what we're being paid.

42:21And so they're paying us a fixed amount out of that based on their rate card, it's called.

42:27And so everything above that is pure profit.

42:29Okay, does that make sense?

42:31So 94 cents a minute, is that—.

42:33No, 94 cents, um, it's like a 94-cent base fare.

42:37Okay, just 94 cents plus 70 cents a mile time, uh, and 24 cents a minute.

42:44That's our pay.

42:46And the other thing that I wanted to highlight as part of that is These 2 trips that you're referring to, the $110 trips, one of those where the driver made $14, that trip was heavily surged, but that surge did not reflect for the driver's earnings.

43:04Yeah.

43:05The other trip that is mentioned here is also a trip that took place, began in Washington State, where Washington has regulations on per mile and per minute pay.

43:17And that likely shows some of the disparity between the two.

43:20However, both trips have extremely high passenger payments.

43:24Yeah.

43:25Compared to what the driver actually makes.

43:29Okay, thanks.

43:29This is helpful.

43:30I know there's more.

43:31I just wanted to, while we had you both up there—.

43:33I'll have all these slides for the council clerk to share with all of you.

43:36And we'll be happy to make like a little cheat sheet and you can take them with you for your next one.

43:40Okay, that was my other question to the chair.

43:42I did think—.

43:43Yeah.

43:44Councilor Novick had said there was a presentation.

43:45Have I missed— was there a presentation we should have with us or is this—.

43:50Yeah, we have the presentation from the driver's union and we can get that posted if you all send it to my team.

43:57We'll make sure it gets to the clerk to get posted.

44:00I believe we will have a presentation from the economist as well, which I don't have a copy of right now.

44:07None of them are posted yet.

44:10I'll also add, just, we heard from our folks at the table right now about the terms that you're required to sign.

44:18In most instances, independent contractors negotiate the terms that they work under.

44:23That's part of what being an independent contractor instead of an employee benefits.

44:29And in this case, we have an industry where that's really not the case.

44:32Everybody's working under those same terms that are laid out daily.

44:36Thank you.

44:36By the company.

44:38Councilor Ryan.

44:39Sure.

44:40Thank you, Chair Pirtle-Guiney.

44:41Um, I don't—.

44:44I think I'll go ahead and ask these questions because the 2 of you are up here right now.

44:47It could be that it would be better if I listened to the next presentation, and ditto to sending us this presentation and the cheat sheet.

44:55Um, I think when I was listening, what I was struck with is it made it sound like it's probably the whole system nationally has some questions, but specifically in Portland and perhaps in the state of Oregon.

45:08Is that what I was supposed to pick up, that you're getting gouged or not being treated even as fairly as some of your peers in other places?

45:18We call it algorithmic wage discrimination, and it is happening everywhere, Councilor Ryan.

45:23And this is the idea that the TNCs are using their algorithms to extract maximum profit while keeping driver pay as low as possible.

45:32And so in most places— this may be getting a little bit of the weeds, but I think it's important to mention.

45:37Oh, this is all in the weeds at this point.

45:38Yes, yes.

45:40People don't understand gig work.

45:41And there's nothing wrong with that.

45:42It just happens.

45:42People just don't understand gig work unless they've done it.

45:44So in most places outside of Oregon, what happens is, is when you get a ride request, you get any old price for a ride, but that ride is being shopped to multiple drivers.

45:57To see which one of them will accept it at the lowest price, right?

46:02Meanwhile, algorithms are doing the same thing for the riders.

46:06You ever open both of your phones and try to price a ride on both apps and think, wow, this thing jumped up like $15, what the heck happened?

46:14That is an algorithm using, you know, your personal data.

46:20You too, that was—.

46:21To determine pricing yeah.

46:24You're at the airport, you come back at 1 in the morning, your phone's about to die, you're tired, you're pretty desperate at that point.

46:31You'll take— you'll pay any old price for a ride, and the algorithms know this.

46:36So in Oregon, in Oregon, at least in Portland, we'll, you know, talk about Portland here, we have what's still called a rate card.

46:44Most drivers had a rate card, and it ensured that you were paid a certain fixed amount so you could easily calculate what you were going to earn on every ride.

46:54But, um, you know, folks like Len Sherman from the Columbia School of Business, who has— highly recommend checking him, his work out if you haven't already— studied gig work extensively, you know, has done a lot of research into what Uber and Lyft call, you know, dynamic pricing or surveillance pricing.

47:11The idea that you're getting charged a different price for the same trip, and it happens with different people.

47:19Right.

47:20And so we have a rate card here.

47:23It's a crap rate card, and it's gone down considerably over the years.

47:28But what it does is it's very, very low.

47:30And so, you know, like I mentioned before, you get to kind of calculate what you're making, but it also sets kind of a wage ceiling.

47:37So then the TNCs can, you know, charge more money on that back end, and they still only have to pay us lowly drivers 70 cents a mile.

47:44Which for context, as I think Rob mentioned, Bob, sorry, is less than what the IRS will allow you to deduct for your depreciation per mile.

47:54Just to put that in context.

47:57That was helpful.

47:58I don't know if this is the right place to ask, and it could be for the sponsors.

48:02Have you also looked at going to the state with some of this legislation?

48:08Has Salem taken this up?

48:09Yeah, as a matter of fact, We, you know, had a bill that was being considered by the state legislature last year that, you know, took some of the best pieces from other legislations such as Washington and Colorado where they have fare transparency.

48:27You know, we were, you know, we've definitely had some conversations with state legislature to, you know, make sure that all Oregon drivers have basic labor standards.

48:35Absolutely.

48:36But we know that the vast majority of the rides are happening here.

48:40The vast majority of the drivers are here.

48:42And, you know, there is a great need okay, and that didn't get out of committee?

48:48It didn't make it very far?

48:49It did not get out of committee.

48:51There are ongoing conversations, but it is slow going.

48:56And, um, there are times, Councilor, where I'm willing to say it looks like Salem's going to move on this, we should hold.

49:03And there are times where, from, from my vantage point, it looks like Salem's having conversations, but they may or may not get there.

49:10And so we might have to do something.

49:12And this felt to me like they may or may not get there.

49:15We should be having conversations.

49:17And you've worked in Salem.

49:18I have not.

49:18So that means a lot coming from you.

49:20I always assume it takes longer.

49:22Okay.

49:23Thank you.

49:23Those are a couple of my questions.

49:26Okay.

49:27Colleagues, any other questions for the drivers union?

49:30We did have that person get back online.

49:32Okay.

49:34Thank you both.

49:34And it sounds like at least one of the testifiers from previously is back online.

49:41Wendy, can we invite our guests to say a few words?

49:48Angela, will you please try unmuting and see if we can hear you this time?

49:53Can you hear me?

49:54We can, yes.

49:56Thank you.

49:57Yay!

49:59Okay.

50:00Hello there, councilors.

50:02My name is Angie Griegs.

50:04I've been driving rideshare in the Portland area for about 8 years, and thank you for hearing us.

50:11I love doing this job.

50:13I love talking with people while I'm making a living and keeping people from driving under the influence.

50:19It also works for me because I have a bedbound husband who needs a caregiver, and I'm limited on the hours and times I can work.

50:28If I had a traditional job, they probably would have let me go for calling out too often.

50:32Thank you.

50:33Unfortunately, making a living gets harder every day.

50:37The cost of food, medicine, gas, everything is skyrocketing, but my pay has gone down over time.

50:45Uber and Lyft used to pay quite a bit more.

50:47When I first started, we got a set 80% of the fares.

50:52Now oftentimes I've seen Uber and Lyft take upwards of 80%.

50:57And how is this fair when I'm paying for the car, the cost of it, the maintenance?

51:02Wear and tear.

51:04And I've also seen they're charging the riders more, and due to this, riders are tipping less.

51:10I'm not saying everyone has to tip, but when they're paying $100 and assuming we're getting $70 or $75 out of that, we need to know that.

51:22We need fair transparency because Uber and Lyft make it very hard to see what they paid.

51:27Thank you.

51:29There have been many times taking people home from the airport when riders are charged crazy amounts.

51:36So I will get riders that are tired, jet-lagged, frustrated, and just want to go home or to their hotel.

51:43And now they're upset with me because they think I'm the one charging them $100 for a 20-minute ride.

51:50They don't realize it's not under my control, and I don't get the lion's share of that.

51:54Thank you.

51:55I think the companies know they have a captive audience and increase fares accordingly.

52:00They also do this at Moda Center and any venue that has large crowds all wanting to go home.

52:07If there's a peak amount of riders, they will increase prices, sometimes to amounts that are unsustainable, and they don't share that with the drivers.

52:17We need to see what they've paid without having to jump through hoops continuously.

52:22And we need a fair wage for our work and for the costs we pay.

52:26The current system is not fair to the drivers or the riders.

52:30Thank you all so much for your time.

52:35Thank you very much.

52:39Wendy, did we get our other testifier back online, or—.

52:42No, they weren't able to join.

52:43Okay.

52:45Um, do we have Professor Parrott back online?

52:51Dr. Parrott, I know you were having some technological issues as well.

52:56I've just resent that link as well.

53:00Okay.

53:05Have you heard back?

53:05Should we wait for a moment or should we go to the next steps and timeline first?

53:14I've just sent it, so it might be good to wait a minute.

53:18Okay, it sounds like Councilor Ryan has a question, so we'll go to that question first.

53:24It's not, but it is now.

53:26Thanks.

53:27Um, sorry, I don't know this, but you're all speaking as your drivers, like, um, fare drivers to move people from A to B, but there's also the folks at Uber and Lyft that— I don't know if Lyft does this, um, anyway— that deliver food and such.

53:44Is that different than this conversation?

53:47Yeah, many of us do.

53:48Pardon me?

53:49Many of us do deliver food as well.

53:52Councilor, the city regulates the movement of people differently from the movement of other goods, including food.

54:00That's all I needed to hear.

54:01Thank you.

54:02That helped a lot.

54:03Sorry, I haven't been in the committees that have received any of this context, so I get to ask those kind of questions.

54:09As context for our colleagues, I believe when you were formerly a commissioner, There was movement on cost share for delivery of food or a limit on how much of an upcharge could be charged there that didn't go to drivers.

54:24But that didn't happen for the movement of people.

54:27No, that was all prior to me.

54:29That was prior to you?

54:30Okay.

54:30And I'll have questions about the contract we signed then.

54:33Thanks.

54:35Wendy, do we have the professor online?

54:39I believe so.

54:40Okay, Dr.

54:43Parrott, are you—.

54:44Um, yes.

54:58Wendy, can you help him unmute so that we can move to his presentation?

55:05I've tried.

55:09Dr. Parrott, if you can hear us, we are ready to hear from you.

55:12And I think if you're not able to share your presentation, we have staff in the room who can get it up for you.

55:38Hello?

55:38Hi there.

55:40Hello, can you hear me?

55:41Yes, we can.

55:44All right, thank you very much.

55:45Thanks for your patience.

55:46Sorry about the technical glitches on my end.

55:50That's all right.

55:51Why don't you go ahead and— if you can go ahead and just introduce yourself for the record, that would be great.

55:56And I believe we have staff working on getting the presentation up.

55:58I think that Councilor Novick's All right, thank you.

56:05James Parrott.

56:08I am a senior fellow and senior advisor at the Center for New York City Affairs, and I'm formerly the director of economic and fiscal policies at the center.

56:19Over the past decade, I've worked with several state and local governments across the country in analyzing ridesharing and other gig economy services.

56:29I've co-authored studies that have formed the basis for the minimum rideshare driver pay standards in New York City, Seattle, and Minnesota that have affected well over 100,000 drivers providing 300 million trips annually.

56:46I'd like to start off this afternoon by, um, looking at an analysis that, that Uber commissioned recently of what Portland rideshare driver pays, uh, what Portland rideshare drivers make on an hourly basis.

57:08Uber commissioned the consulting firm, uh, HRA to do an analysis.

57:14They provided proprietary earnings data for half of all the trips in 2024 by Portland drivers.

57:24This analysis computed that after allowing for expenses, the drivers took home $21.82 an hour.

57:34Um, Uber is prone to overstate driver earnings and underpay its drivers.

57:41In a re-examination of this analysis that Professor Michael Reich from University of California Uh, at Berkeley and myself conducted, we found that after you make necessary adjustments to the way Uber calculates after-expense hourly pay, that Portland Uber drivers are really making something like $12.05 an hour after expenses.

58:09The difference between these 2 figures is that we provided a much more realistic estimate of what drivers' expenses were, and we included all of the driver's time with an estimate for waiting time that Uber didn't consider.

58:27Uber had also included in its $21.82 an hour the amount of tips, which are not, of course, not paid by the company, paid by, by the passengers, and shouldn't be counted as part of driver pay.

58:46When you look at this in relation to the $15.95 minimum hour, uh, minimum pay level in Portland in 2024, you can see that that's, uh, $12.05 is certainly less than $15.95.

59:03But that's not really an accurate way to make the comparison.

59:07Minimum wage employers, as all employers do, have to pay the payroll tax, the employer share of the payroll tax for Social Security and Medicare.

59:18They have to pay unemployment insurance, workers' comp.

59:22They have to pay paid sick time.

59:24When you factor in all of those costs, uh, the minimum wage in 2024 in Portland was more like $18.72 an hour.

59:36That's what it costs an employer to employ a minimum wage worker.

59:42$12.05 Is quite a bit less than that that Uber pays.

59:48It's 24% below the $15.95 Portland minimum wage.

59:54It's 36% less than what an employer of a minimum wage worker must pay per hour, and it's 42% less than what the average fast food worker made in Portland in 2024 once you factor in these mandated costs for payroll taxes and worker safety net costs.

1:00:20So it really is more realistic to, to, uh, to consider that Uber is paying in the neighborhood of $12 An hour, not the $21 an hour, $22 an hour that they contended.

1:00:37Uh, in looking at trends in Uber pricing over the years, you know, what I'm about to say can shed a little bit of light on, on what the drivers have been testifying about.

1:00:50Uber changed their, their pricing policy in, uh, in 2022 to go to an upfront pricing, uh, approach.

1:01:01Um, and since then, passenger fares have continued to rise, driver pay has fallen, and Uber's and Lyft's profits have soared.

1:01:16A large sample of national data from Gridwise Analytics a third-party app that enables drivers to track their earnings and driving activity, indicates that rideshare fares rose 9.6% from December 2024 to December 2025, while driver pay per trip increased by only 3.6%.

1:01:43I think one of the early speakers noted how significant Uber and Lyft profits have been rising recently.

1:01:51Let me just underscore that Uber's revenues rose 18% in 2025 and 14%, uh, in the first quarter of 2026, while net operating income climbed 50% in 2025 and was up by 42% through the first quarter.

1:02:11For Lyft, revenues rose uh, 9% last year, 14% in the first quarter.

1:02:19They— Lyft recorded a 30%— 38% increase in net cash from operations in 2025 and a 7% increase, uh, through the first quarter of this year.

1:02:34Based on my analysis of rideshare activity all across the country, over several years, it's very clear that it is possible to effectively regulate through minimum pay standards driver pay so that workers can be compensated for all of their time and have a fair reimbursement rate for their expenses.

1:02:59Rideshare driving in America has evolved considerably over the past decade.

1:03:04In its early days, Uber and Lyft used ample flows of venture capital to attract drivers to its platform, paying them a relatively fixed 75 to 80% of the passenger fare.

1:03:16Company algorithms managed drivers, evaluated their performance, and compiled customer ratings.

1:03:23Today, the company algorithms make it extremely difficult for drivers to understand the basis for their compensation.

1:03:30The companies use incentives to influence and control driver behavior.

1:03:35And algorithmic discipline and deactivation, which are both perplexing and frustrating to resolve.

1:03:43Increasingly, in situations where the companies face an excess of drivers relative to consumer demand, the companies often effectively auction trips at the lowest pay a driver will accept while keeping passenger fares high.

1:04:01As a result, drivers report that their pay and share of the passenger fare have fallen while rideshare companies', uh, profits climb.

1:04:14It's also very clear from my analysis of driver pay trends in several jurisdictions that independent government pay regulation required, such as exists in Seattle, New York City and Minnesota, that this independent governmental pay regulation requires an effective mechanism to maintain a workable balance between the supply of rideshare drivers and the level of consumer demand for rides.

1:04:43Without effective supply regulations regulating the supply of drivers, driver pay will continue to be inadequate.

1:04:53I'd be happy to answer any questions council members have.

1:04:57Thank you.

1:04:58Thank you so much.

1:04:59Colleagues, are there questions for Professor Parrott?

1:05:04And I've seen that at least some people have the written presentation, the written testimony.

1:05:12I think that it is up online now as well.

1:05:19Any questions for the professor?

1:05:20Yes.

1:05:21Okay, Councilor Zimmerman, go right ahead.

1:05:24Thank you.

1:05:25You mentioned that in 2022 the program shifted to upfront pricing.

1:05:31So for a lay user perspective, I remember that's why I originally liked Uber when it all started, because unlike a taxi that it always just kept on running, I knew what my price was as a user.

1:05:46So I don't think that that's what you mean.

1:05:48So what does this mean in this context in 2022 that changed?

1:05:55Yeah, so it is the, the, the term upfront pricing is what the companies use to describe their pay policy.

1:06:06But I understand what you mean by, you know, it's always been possible to sort of see To get, to get an estimate of what the fare is before you decide to accept that, that, that ride offer.

1:06:19So what the companies did differently, rather than, than use sort of a taxi rate formula where the fare would be determined by so much per minute and so much per mile, you know, the, the time and the distance that it would that it's estimated that that ride would, would require.

1:06:41Um, the companies quoted, uh, the passenger a fare and quoted the driver, uh, an amount of money.

1:06:50Um, now, uh, this could vary depending upon, um, supply and demand conditions, uh, at the time.

1:06:59As the companies, uh, you know, this was in 2022 after the company's been operating for several years.

1:07:06They had learned a lot about the market dynamics of the rideshare industry, and they were better able to judge, uh, what sort of fare they could charge for a ride and what sort of pay they would have to provide to the driver to get the driver to accept that.

1:07:27So the pricing at that point was decoupled from the, from the taxi sort of rate card approach of so much per mile and so much per minute.

1:07:40And it was a function of what the algorithm had, had set the fare and the driver pay at, given everything that it had learned about the local market.

1:07:57And, and, and what it could basically charge the passengers and, uh, how little it could pay the drivers to get them to accept the rides.

1:08:07Okay, thank you.

1:08:08So I'm going to call it in the before era, before era of 2022.

1:08:16I as a user would know that my ride was $25.

1:08:20Believe me, I haven't had a $25 ride in years, it feels like, but a $25 ride but the driver, it was a, it was a, it was magic behind the scenes that they wouldn't know until that fare was over to know what their fare was that they were going to make.

1:08:36And now post-2022 with upfront pricing, I know that the ride is $55 and the driver also before accepting it, they now can see what the fare is.

1:08:50Is that I want to make sure I'm— it is a little hard to hear you.

1:08:53That's why I'm repeating back to you.

1:08:56Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's, uh, that's a succinct way of, uh, of stating it.

1:09:04Okay, thanks, Chair.

1:09:05That's it for my questions right now.

1:09:06Thank you, Professor.

1:09:07Thank you, Councilor.

1:09:09Uh, Councilor Ryan, did you have questions?

1:09:11Yeah, this is, uh, Professor Parrott.

1:09:14Is that who this is?

1:09:14Yes.

1:09:15Okay, welcome to Portland, Oregon.

1:09:18Um, I see you're at the new school Is that true?

1:09:22That's right.

1:09:23Okay, great.

1:09:23That was my first real job outta college was at the New School in '85 to '89.

1:09:27So just wanted to say that.

1:09:31You study this across the country.

1:09:35It must be something you do, right?

1:09:36You study this market across the country?

1:09:40Yeah.

1:09:41Okay.

1:09:42Yeah, I started— go ahead.

1:09:45No, no, tell, tell us more about your credentials.

1:09:48So I was just going to say that the, the way I got into it was I was asked in 2017 by the New York City Taxi and Limousine Commission to undertake an analysis of New York City rideshare driver pay.

1:10:05The city was getting lots of complaints from the drivers about declining pay at that point.

1:10:13And that, that study led to the development of the minimum pay standard that was enacted in 2018 and took effect in 2019.

1:10:25And since then, there have been minimum pay standards enacted in Seattle, and later that spread to the entire state of Washington.

1:10:39And in Minnesota in, in 2024.

1:10:42Well, this is how you became an expert.

1:10:46So I started doing that and then have, have been asked by, you know, folks like the City of Portland and cities all over the, the country, um, to help advise them on how to proceed.

1:11:03Okay, um, so anyway, that's how you became an expert.

1:11:06And so my point that I want to ask the question is, what sticks out about Portland when you compare it to other markets you've studied?

1:11:14If you would say there's one thing that's special, unique, different, what would it be?

1:11:21Well, I don't know that there's anything that, that I've learned about how rideshare operates in Portland that is unique.

1:11:31I think it's fairly I think the, the way the industry operates is, uh, you know, to, to a large extent it's fairly uniform.

1:11:41That's, that's the kind of, um, uh, operation that the companies have, have sought in order to present consumers wherever they may be getting off a plane, uh, with a predictable, uh, rideshare experience.

1:12:00So the companies have tried to, to make the industry fairly uniform across cities in the United States, and they've also spread to other countries as well.

1:12:13Okay, thank you, Professor Parrott.

1:12:15I think from listening to the, the good people in the room, it sounded like there were some issues that were a little bit unique, but your, your you're making it clear there's a pattern about the entire country in terms of this practice.

1:12:31And I appreciate that Councilor Zimmerman made it really clear there's been a difference since 2022.

1:12:37And I knew there was a reason I stopped using it as much, 'cause the prices did go up dramatically.

1:12:41Yeah, thanks.

1:12:44Thank you.

1:12:44Any other questions for the professor?

1:12:47Okay, thank you so much for being here with us and bearing with us through the technological challenges we're having today.

1:12:54We really appreciate hearing from you.

1:12:57Thank you.

1:12:57I think that, I think the technical problems were all on my end, so I'm really apologetic for that.

1:13:04That's okay.

1:13:04These things happen.

1:13:07Colleagues, we are next going to hear from my policy staffer, Devin, about the timeline and next steps for the work that we have been convening.

1:13:19And while Devin's sitting down, I will say I was remiss before in not noting when I said that Councilor Murillo was looking at working on this as well, that Councilor Dunphy has also signed on and is partnering on the work.

1:13:36I apologize to him and his team that I didn't mention that previously.

1:13:39That's a newer partner, and we're excited to have him.

1:13:45Devin, why don't you tell us about what the next couple of months look like and what we have calendared out?

1:13:50To make sure that this conversation doesn't lose momentum and we keep working and moving forward.

1:13:56Absolutely.

1:13:57Thank you, Councilor.

1:13:58For the record, Devin Mullins.

1:14:00I am a policy manager for Councilor Pirtle-Guiney.

1:14:03A couple of important dates to kind of flag for you.

1:14:06Firstly is we have Councilor Pirtle-Guiney and Councilor Novick, and as well as other co-sponsors, are convening kind of a roundtable series to discuss and negotiate with Uber and Lyft over what a policy might look like that works in Portland.

1:14:21This process has started.

1:14:23So we're looking at, I think the first meeting is June 18th, and we're looking at 3 or 4 meetings, however many it takes to get the policy right, but probably 3 or 4 meetings over the course of June and July and possible follow-up.

1:14:37Another important date to flag is kind of separate legislation that we see as complementary to this legislation, but isn't exactly what was discussed today, is on a driver's resource center.

1:14:48Looking to have this in this committee and City Life on June 9th.

1:14:52Again, this is complementary legislation that deals with other challenges in the market, from deactivation support to translation interpretation services.

1:15:00Our office will send out an informational memo similar to the ones we've done on other policy ahead of the City Life Committee meeting.

1:15:06That way you have some background on it.

1:15:08And then finally, a kind of mid-July, August timeframe, we're aiming to have the draft ordinance on the earnings standard that was discussed today.

1:15:16However that might look, kind of at the conclusion of those negotiations with Uber and Lyft and after robust conversations with the drivers union.

1:15:24Importantly, this will still be a work in progress, but we'll aim to have a hearing on it in the committee so that it can be sufficiently worked by you all.

1:15:32And then just one thing I wanted to add as well is the— I'm gonna send out an email to all of you all and your policy staff with the presentations today.

1:15:42Apologies, it was my fault that those were not posted in time, so I apologize about that.

1:15:45And then also share a presentation from the take rate proposal that Councilor Novick's office presented at the last Labor and Workforce Committee.

1:15:53I already found that presentation.

1:15:55I'm going to send it to you all so you have that context.

1:15:58Thank you, Devin.

1:16:01Colleagues, any questions about those next steps?

1:16:04And at this time, if anybody has general comments or discussion, It's a great time to get in the queue.

1:16:10We'll take just a few more minutes before we move to the next agenda item.

1:16:18Okay.

1:16:20Seeing none, before we close this, Wendy, did we get any of our other testifiers back?

1:16:27We have Ahmed calling in.

1:16:31Ahmed, can you please unmute and speak?

1:16:35Speak if you're ready.

1:16:43Believe it's star 6 if you're on your phone.

1:16:57We have tried.

1:16:59Okay, I think at this point we will need to move to the next agenda item.

1:17:02Thank you to everybody who was and if there were folks who wanted to testify and the technology wasn't working, please feel free to submit testimony or send information to our offices.

1:17:17With that, Diana, could you please call the next item on the agenda?

1:17:22Yes, item number 3, document number 2026-174, amend city code to transfer oversight of portable sign placement in the right-of-way and remove registration requirements for portable signs.

1:17:44Thank you.

1:17:45Colleagues, this comes to us from Councilor Novick's office and he is unfortunately not able to be here today, but had asked us to move forward anyway.

1:17:53And I believe we have somebody from his team here to present.

1:17:57Perfect.

1:17:58Spencer, good to see you.

1:17:59Hi.

1:18:04Hello, City Life Committee.

1:18:06My name is Spencer Knowles.

1:18:07I'm the chief of staff for Councilor Steve Novick in District 3, and it's a pleasure to be here today for what I hope is a somewhat practical and straightforward change to city code and how we regulate, uh, portable signs, also known as sandwich boards.

1:18:26So I'll share a presentation On my screen.

1:18:50So while that gets loaded up, um, this concept came to us when we were meeting, um, with various business districts and one of the leaders said, you know, I'd like to buy sandwich boards for all the business members in my district.

1:19:06But not only is there the price of buying the sandwich board, but then there's this permit that you have to get through the city.

1:19:13And that piqued our interest 'cause we didn't realize that you had to get these things permitted.

1:19:20And I'll note that if you walk down many business districts in the City of Portland and you look at all the different A-Boards, I won't— they're not all permitted.

1:19:31The compliance rate is fairly low.

1:19:34And so we decided to take a look at it and see what could be done.

1:19:41For starters, what is a portable sign?

1:19:43They're also known as A-boards or sandwich boards.

1:19:46They're not attached to the structure or the ground.

1:19:50The placement and standards for portable signs are currently regulated under Portland's sign code, which is lengthy.

1:19:58And was established— this permit requirement was established in 2001.

1:20:03To place a portable sign in the right-of-way, you must apply for and display a permit as a little sticker on the bottom of the A-board.

1:20:14Why were they initially regulated?

1:20:17It was part of the right-of-way management, a citywide effort in 2001 to regulate the right-of-way.

1:20:23And was a piece of the sit/lie ordinances that were big at that time.

1:20:29There were also factors of ADA accessibility.

1:20:34If they're not placed properly, they can impede the right-of-way, people walking and navigating the sidewalks.

1:20:41And also, there was at one point some revenue positives that the city was receiving from this program.

1:20:52However, permitting is no longer necessary for the city and is a burden upon many of the small businesses in Portland, even if it's just a small one.

1:21:02So just a brief overview of the regulatory program.

1:21:05Permits you can get in 1, 2, or 4-year spans.

1:21:11The number of permits has been issued— that have been issued has been decreasing over the years.

1:21:17You'll see here the— in the calendar year '23, '24, '25, all decreasing.

1:21:24And there used to be much higher, as is reflected on the right in the registration fees the city used to receive from them.

1:21:33So for example, in 2016, we got $214,000 from Rayboard registrations.

1:21:40And last year we got $40,000.

1:21:43Wow.

1:21:44And one of the problems is we received $40,000 in registration revenue, but the program to operate the Aboard regulatory program, the cost was $46,000.

1:21:56So we were losing $7,000 a year adding this burden of a permit for small businesses.

1:22:09Sorry, Chair, before we move on, that last slide, total sign program revenue.

1:22:15What am I supposed to read about that column though?

1:22:17Because the program you said brought in $38,000, but what is the $168,000?

1:22:23So, um, the sign program doesn't only address A-board signs, it's all the signs across program— across the city.

1:22:31And you still have to get permits for other types of signs like awnings or lighted signs, stuff like that.

1:22:37You're just separating out the two.

1:22:39Thanks, appreciate it.

1:22:39That's correct, yeah.

1:22:44We've also seen that complaints about A-Boards have dropped over the years.

1:22:54So A-Board compliance is complaint-driven and is currently investigated by the PP&D enforcement team.

1:23:02People from that team are here if you have questions for them.

1:23:05If a violation is found, a notice is sent.

1:23:09If not corrected, then a citation is issued.

1:23:12Usually they try and get people into compliance before issuing any sort of citations.

1:23:19Compliance with permitting is low, yet complaints have also been falling, suggesting that business owners are somewhat self-regulating.

1:23:28And I, you know, when we started looking into this, we were really concerned that if we removed the permit, there might be some ADA compliance issues and that, you know, that would affect that population greatly.

1:23:41But we're not seeing currently that the level of complaints for ADA compliance is not something that couldn't be handled by the PBOT right-of-way regulatory team.

1:23:55So what this ordinance does, it removes the permit requirement from Title 32.

1:23:59Businesses will no longer need to apply for and display a permit for the sandwich board.

1:24:05All the other standards for portable signs, such as size and design, will all— will still remain in Title 32, as well as some placement restrictions in certain zones and districts.

1:24:22And then it will also add to Title 17 to certify PBOT's authority to regulate portable signs in the right-of-way.

1:24:30It'll maintain standards for ADA compliance.

1:24:34Right-of-way management will be further consolidated within PBOT, and it maintains penalties for any violations under the transportation fee schedule.

1:24:46And then lastly, Why does this matter?

1:24:49We all know how important small businesses are to Portland.

1:24:54Yeah, I know Councilor Ryan has discussed that at length, and this committee has discussed that at length.

1:25:02Let's see.

1:25:03And we feel this is a more efficient and sensible approach to A boards, and it just is one extra permit that the city is requiring, a level of red tape that we can take away and help small businesses operate in the city.

1:25:21So that's our pitch to you.

1:25:23Happy to answer any questions or call up any staff.

1:25:27We have folks from both PBOT, Right-of-Way Compliance, and PP&D here if there are questions.

1:25:36Thank you, Spencer.

1:25:37Councilor Zimmerman, would you like to kick us off?

1:25:40So much I want to kick us off.

1:25:42I love that this is coming forward, and, and hats off to, uh, Councilor Novick and his team for— I don't know, whatever the analogy of getting this over the line.

1:25:51So, um, the fact that we even brought in $39,000 last year in revenue because people followed the permitting laws is amazing to me.

1:26:01Um, I just find— so just, I say this in the same week that in one of my districts, one of my neighborhoods in the district, I've got people complaining about signage boards right now.

1:26:12But in large part, I was aware of the permitting and that it seems like they have certainly gone down in the usage.

1:26:20It used to be you'd see that City of Portland little sticker on a lot of them, and you barely see them anymore, which is why I'll be supportive of this, because even in a time when people are not following it, it— Portland has a particular— A lot of signs.

1:26:35Passive aggressiveness that will make sure that business owners comply with keeping the sidewalks clear, right?

1:26:42We are, we are big fans of shaming you into doing the right thing, and I think that that's what's going to apply here.

1:26:49And we talk about compliance— Spencer, thanks for laying that out— when a code compliance officer shows up and says you're out of compliance, please just move it 6 inches to the left and all of a sudden you're in compliance.

1:27:00I think that's that's the— like, we don't have to over-engineer the damn thing, right?

1:27:04So this is definitely one of those dumb laws accounts, and dumb laws should always be attacked.

1:27:10So, um, what I really like about it though is that having standards is what people ask for.

1:27:17Having to take out a permit to verify that you followed those standards is the silliness of this, not that there are standards.

1:27:23And I think that was a good distinction.

1:27:25Thank you for putting that in here, is that there will still be standards, and when somebody gets out of them, our code compliance and nosy neighbors will still be able to do their thing.

1:27:34But we don't have to do a mother may I permission slip, and being a city of permission slips is something that I'm quite tired of.

1:27:40So all in, all the time, run it all the way across.

1:27:44Let's pass it.

1:27:45Thanks for bringing it forward.

1:27:47And as one of the neighborhoods with plenty of, of concern about sandwich boards, I have thank you, Councilor.

1:27:58Councilor Morillo, were you in the queue, or— No, it got answered by Whitney, so—.

1:28:03Okay.

1:28:04You don't want to also suggest that people shouldn't follow our codes?

1:28:09No, certainly not.

1:28:11I guess the only clarifying question I kind of had that I think was touched on already was, is there— because I think this is very silly, and I agree, and I hope that the city staff agrees.

1:28:18I think it should go away.

1:28:20The only question I have is, are we going to have any issues with like ADA compliance or lawsuits on the city if we change this because of the ADA compliance aspect of it?

1:28:32I would think not, but I would—.

1:28:34At any time.

1:28:35Welcome Lisa to come up here and talk about her work on that issue.

1:28:47Good afternoon.

1:28:47For the record, my name's Lisa Strader.

1:28:49I use she/her pronouns.

1:28:50I'm the Portland Bureau of Transportation's ADA coordinator.

1:28:55I was just looking at my tracking of concerns and complaints that I've received over the last couple of years for sidewalks, and I get about 2 to 3 dozen a year.

1:29:10But that's all kinds of things on sidewalks.

1:29:13So vegetation, somebody's basketball hoop, heaved sidewalks, so literally the infrastructure.

1:29:22I've had like 3 or 4 in the last 2 years about something like a sidewalk sign.

1:29:29And as somebody just mentioned, those are pretty easily rectified.

1:29:35The standards don't change, as I think Spencer mentioned.

1:29:39So even though somebody doesn't have to get a permit, the sizes are regulated, where they're placed is regulated.

1:29:48And because it seems like they're so reasonably priced that they're pretty— they're more widely used, I think people can easily adjust them when there's a problem.

1:30:01I, I think we can continue to point to all the standards that we have and that the corrective measures don't change.

1:30:09We still have a complaint-driven system with changing the code from requiring a permit to have one versus just having it be available to small businesses.

1:30:23Okay, great.

1:30:25Thank you so much for answering my question.

1:30:26That great.

1:30:27Thank you, Councilor.

1:30:30Councilor Ryan, did you have something or did it get answered?

1:30:33Go ahead.

1:30:33Well, no, I want to thank Councilor Morillo for asking that question.

1:30:35That was my main question.

1:30:37Um, I think I just want to profess I'm just excited about this.

1:30:41So thank you, Councilor Novick and Spencer, for bringing this forward.

1:30:45I really appreciate all of the information that you provided.

1:30:49It's such a simple solution, um, for local businesses to actually the city provides one less headache for them.

1:30:55They're not used to that.

1:30:56So this would be a lovely message we'd be sending out.

1:31:00And your answer about the fact that you can manage the complaints, um, with anyone coming from an ADA complaint, whether there's a permit or not, that's what I thought I heard.

1:31:12Was that correct?

1:31:14Um, yes, Councilor Ryan.

1:31:15Yes.

1:31:16So that, that really was my only like concern that there might be on this one.

1:31:21And then when you heard this year alone, we're in the red for even managing this.

1:31:25So it's, um, it's not doing anyone any good, it seems like.

1:31:29Um, so anyway, I look forward to moving this along, and thank you so much, Councilor Novick, for bringing this forward.

1:31:36It's spot on.

1:31:38Thank you, Councilor.

1:31:41Colleagues, I put myself in the queue with 2 small questions.

1:31:43Spencer, You, on the slide about revenues and us being in the red here, there was a note that said the sign program has a reserve deficit of over $250,000.

1:32:01If the permit program goes away, what fund is absorbing that deficit?

1:32:07So that is the— that's the whole sign program.

1:32:10Okay.

1:32:11So actually, if we got rid of this permitting program for A-Boards, it would've prevented last year adding $7,397 to the reserve account.

1:32:24We should know that we have a broader problem than just A-Boards in terms of the sign program and its ability to self-maintain.

1:32:35And we're subsidizing that elsewhere.

1:32:37Where without this, we take away part of that problem?

1:32:41Yes.

1:32:42Okay.

1:32:42Without being an expert on the deficit, reserve deficit, I would say yes.

1:32:47Okay.

1:32:48And then you said on slide 6 that this maintains penalties for violations under the transportation fee schedule.

1:32:59I assume the penalties for violations were elsewhere in code before.

1:33:04Are the penalty levels themselves changing or are we just moving where those penalties are located?

1:33:11Should businesses expect that costs, if they are out of compliance and don't correct the issue and it goes to a penalty, are going up, going down, or staying the same?

1:33:22So I would expect that similar to how currently A-Boards are regulated, The work would be to resolve the issue without a citation first.

1:33:35And then I forgot to print out the transportation fee schedule and bring it with me.

1:33:42I think it's comparable, but I can get back to you with that information.

1:33:48I think it would be helpful to know if there's a major change.

1:33:52I'm happy to wait until we get to full council.

1:33:54I also see our PBOT director coming up good afternoon.

1:33:59Millicent Williams, Director of the Portland Bureau of Transportation.

1:34:01Dan Barton is also here in chambers today.

1:34:05He is our code compliance officer.

1:34:07He has, I believe, at the request of several councilors even seated here today, gone to community to help to support problem solving before a fee is assessed.

1:34:17However, the fees, if there were any, would not be an increase to what is already published regarding correcting the issues.

1:34:26The violation fee would not be any higher than it currently is.

1:34:31But we do work pretty tirelessly to ensure that we're not passing on onerous or unreasonable or even reasonable fees when we can solve the problem.

1:34:41Thank you.

1:34:42I'd just like to make sure we don't have an unexpected shock a few years from now when we find out that fees have gone up.

1:34:49Many times we're working with business owners for many months prior to even those fees being assessed.

1:34:57So from time to time, there may be people who are surprised by a fee given perhaps the relationship with the property.

1:35:04If they're a renter of the property or a leaser, lessee of a property versus property owner, and we've been in contact with one or the other, there may be a surprise.

1:35:15But typically it's been months, uh, that we've worked with, uh, properties and businesses to ensure that they are aware of what's happening and what the potential consequence could be to failure to comply.

1:35:26Perfect.

1:35:27Thank you very much.

1:35:30Colleagues, any other questions, um, for anybody from the PBOT team or for Spencer?

1:35:38Okay, seeing none.

1:35:42I would— oh, do we have public testimony on this item?

1:35:46I didn't see any signed up, but has there been any last minute?

1:35:49No one signed up.

1:35:50Okay.

1:35:52Because there's no public testimony, I will say we took this to all the business districts and asked for their feedback.

1:35:57So we did do some community engagement on it, and their reaction was pretty much, sure, yeah.

1:36:03Their reaction was, we don't follow it anyway, so thanks.

1:36:05Yeah.

1:36:06Okay, pretty much.

1:36:07That's why your collections are difficult.

1:36:09Yeah, I look forward to Councilor Novick mitigating or mediating the upcoming A-board sign wars of some neighborhood at one time, whenever it happens.

1:36:18But we should still pass it.

1:36:20I'd motion to move this forward.

1:36:22Second.

1:36:22Fantastic.

1:36:24Um, could Wendy— could you— oh wait, Diana, could you please call the roll?

1:36:31Little swap out here.

1:36:32Uh, so just to confirm, Moved by Zimmerman and seconded by Ryan?

1:36:36Correct.

1:36:37All right, thank you very much.

1:36:40Ryan?

1:36:41Aye.

1:36:42Murillo?

1:36:43Aye.

1:36:44Zimmerman?

1:36:44Aye.

1:36:45Avalos?

1:36:46Aye.

1:36:46Pirtle-Guiney?

1:36:47Aye.

1:36:48With 5 ayes, the motion to refer Ordinance Document Number 2026-174 to Council with a recommendation to be passed has passed.

1:37:00Thank you very much.

1:37:04And Diana, could you please read items 4 and 5?

1:37:07I believe we're opening these together.

1:37:10Item 4, authorize a cable franchise fund for the Bureau of Planning and Sustainability to support the collection of public education and government revenues and management cable franchise Work related to intergovernmental agreements with jurisdictions.

1:37:30Item 4, amend City Code to reflect the dissolution of the Mount Hood Cable Regulatory Commission.

1:37:39Amend City Code Chapters 3.33 and 3.115.

1:37:46Thank you very much.

1:37:47And colleagues, we have 2 folks from the administration here to help us understand what we're doing today, and I believe Andrew Spear is going to kick us off, is that right?

1:38:00No, okay, kick us off.

1:38:01Hi, perfect.

1:38:02I apologize.

1:38:03Um, thank you for having us today.

1:38:05Uh, Seema Gadkumar, Chief of Community Technology for the Bureau of Planning and Sustainability.

1:38:10Uh, in light of the fact that the MHCRC is going to dissolve at the end of our fiscal year, June 30th, 2026, we are here to present 2 ordinances for your consideration.

1:38:23The first ordinance seeks to amend Portland City Code Chapters 3.33 and 3.115.

1:38:32The intention of these amendments is to effectively transfer existing MHCRC responsibilities concerning cable franchise oversight and management back to the City of Portland.

1:38:45This is essentially a housekeeping/administrative update that's necessary to implement so that the city can effectively assume those cable franchise functionalities as the commission is going to dissolve at the end of our fiscal year.

1:38:59The second ordinance seeks to establish a new cable franchise fund, Fund 234.

1:39:05The intention of this, uh, new cable franchise fund is to allow the City of Portland to receive directly its cable franchise revenues and to effectively manage the compliance obligations derived from those cable franchise revenues.

1:39:20Additionally, the new cable franchise fund will succeed and eventually replace the existing MHCRC Fund 855, considering that the commission is going to dissolve.

1:39:32With that overview, I'll pass it to Andrew Spear.

1:39:34Thank you so much.

1:39:35Hi, good afternoon, councilors.

1:39:36My name is Andrew Spear, and I'm the franchise utility program manager within the Bureau of Planning and Sustainability.

1:39:41Just have a short presentation that will go over a little bit more detail than what Seema shared just now in summary.

1:39:48You'll recall I was here last month for the cable franchise amendments for Comcast.

1:39:55And so these next 2 slides should look familiar.

1:39:58But as Seema mentioned, we're going through the process of just closing up all aspects of requirements to dissolve the commission as of the end of this fiscal year.

1:40:10And so as part of that, these 2 items are practically required for the City of Portland to administer the cable program, as Seema outlined.

1:40:20And then again, this slide you've seen as well.

1:40:22We're at the point of the far right item, which is just implementation.

1:40:27And so we're practically just carrying out these last remaining items for approval.

1:40:32And I think these are the last 2 items that will need council approval.

1:40:36And so we're just working through the steps to functionalize here's just an overview of the chapters that we are bringing forward in the first item with the chapter titles.

1:40:52So chapter— both chapters just have minor edits, and I'll cover those in small detail next 2 slides.

1:40:59But in short, most of the changes are just removing references to the MHCRC and ensuring that Portland is the city that is the owner of the property.

1:41:06Thank you.

1:41:07The operator in, um, in effectuating the, um, code itself.

1:41:15For Chapter, uh, 3.33, you'll see here on the right-hand column, um, those are the changes.

1:41:21And again, just removing the references to MHCRC.

1:41:25Um, and then there's some other functions or other language edits that just bring in that the Bureau of Planning and Sustainability is the operator of the code.

1:41:35Um, and you know, very practical edits here.

1:41:41Nothing technical in nature other than just the name change.

1:41:45And these edits were included as exhibits into the packet as well for reference if you have the redline open.

1:41:55Chapter 3.115, again on the right-hand column, removes references to MHCRC, ensures that cable operators Yes.

1:42:08And then that the BPS is the operator of the code to enforce those.

1:42:15And then we also— just a technical aspect— as part of Open Signal's work, City of Portland has an opportunity to have board members on Open Signal's board, and those are appointed via the mayor.

1:42:29And so this just retains that right and clarifies it and removes references to the mayor.

1:42:39That concludes the first item, uh, and then we're moving on to the second item, which is the creation of the new fund, uh, post-MHCRC.

1:42:48And again, as Seema mentioned, the 855 fund is the current fund we operate under where cable revenues go into, uh, as part of the MHCRC.

1:42:58With the dissolution, the that fund will no longer be able to be used for Portland proper, and so the creation of a new fund is required.

1:43:07So this is just simply authorizing approval of the new fund, which will then be for Portland-only revenues, and for the city to finish out all the dissolution actions as part of the next 2.5, 3 years with paying out the community technology grants, which have been issued out by the commission.

1:43:28Um, would still have, uh, process and payments to go out over those periods.

1:43:33Um, just a point of, um, fact, uh, the Fund 855 will likely close towards the end of our calendar year just because there might be residual lingering responsibilities emanating from the closing out of the, the commission.

1:43:46And so the fund will actually probably close a little bit later than June 30th.

1:43:50Just a point of clarification.

1:43:51Sorry, go ahead.

1:43:53And then this is a little bit of summary.

1:43:56Again, just wanting to clarify what we're approving and for what.

1:44:01I've mentioned the first 2 bullets, but I think the last bullet here is an aspect of strategy and direction for both the Bureau and the city to consider more generally about what is the use of PEG dollars over time and how do we forecast those PEG dollars.

1:44:18And as the dissolution occurs, The monies that we take in from the MHCRC that are Portland's PEG revenues, what's the use of those funds?

1:44:29So there's a strategic aspect to this, and the creation of the fund will allow those dollars to be held separately from other revenues and comply with all federal and FCC guidance on PEG use and administering of PEG revenues.

1:44:44And with that, that concludes the presentation on my end, and I'm happy to take questions.

1:44:49Thank you.

1:44:52And Diana, do we have anybody signed up for public testimony on either of these items?

1:44:57No one signed up.

1:44:59Okay, so colleagues, if there are any comments, questions, or discussion, let's take that at this time.

1:45:10Seeing none, I will say I really appreciate the, um, The staged presentation we've gotten over a couple of committee meetings to ensure that we understand what is happening as this moves through, because these are technical pieces that are necessary and while small in terms of the changes in the text, do have a significant impact for some members of our community.

1:45:35So I appreciate the time you've taken to describe the details in previous meetings.

1:45:40Did you have a question?

1:45:41Yeah, similar.

1:45:42Thank you, Council.

1:45:44You're not Council President, but you are the chair of this committee.

1:45:47Thank you so much, Andrew, for coming back, and it's good to see you.

1:45:52You said this is the last one, right?

1:45:54Like, this is like the 4th update?

1:45:57The last item that requires Council action as part of the dissolution.

1:46:01Okay, I appreciate that you made that clear, and thanks for methodically walking us through it.

1:46:05It's really appreciated.

1:46:07And, uh, it'll be interesting to see how we, uh, use the funds that are going into this new account going forward, and we'll look forward to your leadership to make some suggestions on that.

1:46:18Thank you.

1:46:21Colleagues, seeing no other discussion, if we feel satisfied with the information and ready to move these forward, I would entertain separate motions to move items 4 and 5 to full I'm so moved.

1:46:35Second.

1:46:36Okay, and that was moved and seconded by Councilor Ryan and Councilor Morillo on both items, is that correct?

1:46:42Yes.

1:46:43Okay, Diana, could you please call the roll?

1:46:47Sure.

1:46:48Uh, Ryan?

1:46:49Aye.

1:46:50Morillo?

1:46:51Aye.

1:46:52Zimmerman?

1:46:53Uh, absent?

1:46:55Avalos?

1:46:56Aye.

1:46:57Pirtle-Guiney?

1:46:58Aye.

1:46:58Aye.

1:46:59With a vote of 4 ayes and 1 absent, the motion to refer both Ordinance Number 2026-175 and 2026-176 to City Council with a recommendation that be passed have passed.

1:47:15Councilor Zimmerman, would you like to add your vote?

1:47:17It was 4 to 0.

1:47:195 To 0.

1:47:21I believe because the vote was called, we need to suspend the rules.

1:47:23Is there any objection to allowing Councilor Zimmerman to add his vote?

1:47:27No.

1:47:27Okay.

1:47:28Thank you.

1:47:29Thank you.

1:47:31Um, colleagues, that completes our final item on the agenda today.

1:47:35Oh, you read those 2 together?

1:47:36We did, yes.

1:47:37We had a presentation of the 2 together and you moved them together.

1:47:42We moved them in one item.

1:47:46We all good on that?

1:47:47Yeah.

1:47:48Okay, absolutely.

1:47:49Perfect.

1:47:50Um, so colleagues, our next At that meeting, we will, as Devin mentioned earlier, hear more about the Driver Resource Center idea.

1:48:02We will be asked to approve a transfer of the franchise agreement for Zenith, which has been bought by a new parent company.

1:48:12And we will hear an ask to extend the lease for the for city kids in one of our city buildings, as well as, of course, have time for public input.

1:48:23And I will just mention for members of the community who are listening that that time at the beginning of each of our meetings is for us to hear from you about any item, not just those on the agenda, but anything related to the committee's work more broadly or issues that you'd like us to take up and consider that you haven't seen on our agendas.

1:48:42We are happy to hear from people at that time, and, um, I hope that the community will take advantage of that opportunity.

1:48:50If there is nothing else, colleagues, I will adjourn today's meeting.

1:48:55Thank you.

1:48:56Yay!